ext_22937 ([identity profile] lilliburlero.livejournal.com) wrote in [community profile] trennels2014-09-19 02:26 pm
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Readthrough: End of Term: Chapters 8-10



I relish Miranda's reflections on the Christians' seeming irreligion and Lawrie's thoughts on acting which open this chapter, and Nicola's resultant 'chilly sense of inadequacy' is a great development of that. Nicola dimly quoting Peter quoting Macbeth is rather touching.

The conversation with Bunty lightens the mood: Nicola discovers she may have become an object of admiration among the Seconds. Does anyone go in for Nicola's reassuring 'This time tomorrow...' routine? I've always felt like Lawrie (and like Nicola does here.)

More of Esther's mother's ghastly manipulative correspondence. It is a truth universally acknowledged that if you really want your readers to loathe a character's mother, then she must be made to do something beastly to a dog, but here it really works, I think. Nicola and Miranda's plan is splendidly crackpot, especially the notion of involving Mr Merrick. I enjoy the way the friendship between Nicola and Miranda is shown to deepen as they discuss their parents: 'Mr West and Mrs Marlow had quite a lot in common, Captain Marlow and Mrs West were absolutely different'--quite an interesting way to put it.

The conversation with Anthony Merrick interests me: he only really becomes serious and convinced when Nicola relates the situation to Patrick and his loss of Regina.

Miranda's account of anti-Semitism is painful, and Nicola’s ‘muddled feeling that she should apologize for the stupidity and bad manners of her countrymen’, only to realise they are Miranda’s too: a very plausible reaction by someone who’s had the privilege of never really having to think about it before.

The Copper Kettle reminds me of a café of the same name on Kings Parade in Cambridge, now, I think, defunct. The coffee was ghastly and it served a perfectly gruesome sticky article called a Rum Baba, though not Special Chocolate Cake. Happy days.

Anyone wonder why Nicola hates Dickens?

I wonder that there aren’t more questions about Nicola receiving phone calls from an MP about a dog, but perhaps I don’t run in quite the same circles as the inmates of Kingscote.

The patient development of the circumstances making Lawrie and Nicola’s swap possible pays off wonderfully, I think in, the ‘explosion’ in Nicola’s mind as it occurs to her and--especially--her manoeuvring Tim into actually making the suggestion.

Own up: who else of you tosses a coin and then does what you secretly wanted to do anyway?

The sketch of the Marlow sisters’ nerves is nice, especially Lawrie’s blazing intensity, though I can’t quite hear Ann being ‘staccato and over-funny’ somehow.

The confrontation with Miss Kempe and Miss Cromwell is full of lovely detail: the repeated ‘A pause. someone else tried.’; Lois being ‘too patently on their side’; Tim ‘proceeding under tow to the Falklands for repair’; Val’s officious usurpation of prerogative; Lawrie’s ‘hunted, uncertain voice’ leading into her confession of the match swap; Miss Cromwell’s fury over Lawrie’s pagan bargain with (apparently) pagan gods; Nicola miserable enough to find Ann’s sympathy comforting. I love it.

Dr Herrick’s apparent exasperation with the play’s rapid personnel turnover turns out to be very fortunate: after having Nicola snatched out of the Choir, he’s seems to have given up on providing understudies. I do, however, wonder how Helen Bagshaw feels about all this? (This has been your regularly scheduled fic prompt).

Kempe’s interrogation of Nicola as to Lawrie’s suitability for the part seems rather desperate. (Staff pov fic of the play would also be very entertaining, I think.) Jan’s defence of Miranda as suitable for the role of angel always amuses me, as perhaps the only moment in the series when we see her lose her cool a bit.

I’m also immensely touched by Lawrie the trouper, and Jan’s startled reaction to her professionalism. It’s a nice detail that Nicola remembers to tell an angry Miranda that Jan supported her, and the calming, decisive effect that has upon her.

The final pages of this chapter both come full circle to its opening discussion of inducing religious feeling in an audience, and set the scene beautifully for the account of the play in the following chapter.



Again, Catholicism is associated with unselfconscious behaviour in church, as Patrick suggests taking Daks into the Minster. For some reason I always think of Helena as a convert upon marriage: though Patrick's reminder not to genuflect suggests the cradle.

I'm amused by Patrick and Mme Orly's shared scepticism, and Patrick's surprised that the latter is not 'maudlin' over her grandchildren. Patrick seems to be projecting his own introversion here: 'it was always embarrassing, seeing people you liked make fools of themselves', which he didn't do when he asked Nick to sing in the Minster at half-term, a much more 'hot-making' thing to do, to my mind, than sing as part of a scheduled performance.

Mme Orly's incredulity at Nicola being able to sing--ouch! I find Patrick's dismissal of Coleridge rather painful (I like Coleridge as a personality as well as the poetry, though flawed is an understatement) but I suppose the Merrick boy would think him a bit of an ass.

The gallery-ex-machina, with its excellent view and acoustics, which nobody seems to have thought of as an audience overflow space, is rather improbable. Perhaps it's actually practically crumbling and Patrick and Rowan are risking a very nasty accident going up there at all. Anyway, at this point I start enjoying myself so much I don't care any more.

Miranda's stillness, and Patrick's fascination with it, ties in nicely to the theme of artifice which governs this chapter: it might be attributable merely to the feeling of 'having bitten off more the than she could chew' at the the end of chapter 8, but the effect is compelling.

Rowan's casting as Gabriel gives a nice insight into what the play cast-by-worthy-character might have been like. It also suggests that Miss Keith approved of her rather more than Rowan has previously indicated. I love Rowan and Patrick's sectarian exchange--Patrick's preference for the Authorized Version over the Douay-Rheims is predictable, but nice nonetheless--turning to Rowan's embarrassment as the question of actual belief is raised.

The livelier, more irreverent Crowd, meanwhile, seems to represent the idea of belief 'without reservation'. Amid all Forest's commentary on transmitting religious feeling and artifice, Ann stands as a rare example of someone who has both genuine faith and the stage presence to convey a sense of it.

I don't know the carol that Patrick doesn't, either, and nor does Google (at least my algorithmic iteration of it doesn't). Anyone care to enlighten us? It sounds like a good 'un, given that it gives the Merrick Boy a visionary moment (I feel he might be prone to those).

Celia Frant is surely worth a drabble or two, isn't she?

I think Forest does a good job of suggesting Lawrie's talent: for me, the most telling detail is that she has the gift of eliciting better performances from the others; given Lawrie's self-conceit and self-centredness, this must be a pure function of her gift: I've worked with actors like that, though, and it is a real thing. And making Rowan's face 'stiff and set'! A fine thing! I also enjoy the audience's 'rather sickening' amusement at what does sound like a slightly saccharine moment between Gabriel and the Boy.

Lawrie's bumptious vanity is beautifully contrasted to her unselfconscious persona as the Boy. Rowan, in true Marlow family tradition, is not about to encourage it, but her "Ghastly child" has some pride in it, I think. Trust the Merrick Boy to spot the reference to St Stephen, and subject it to critique. I always smile at that, thinking of Celia Frant being rather pleased with her own cleverness.

The appearance of Sprog, Patrick's moved incredulity and Nicola's worry (I adore the detail of it being like Pam Marlow's worry at her children's appearances, which suggests she has an opinion of their talents not quite so far removed from her own mother's as she might like to think...) is a great moment.

Forest handles the potential sentimentality of the Shepherd Boy's final appearance with great aplomb; a softy myself, I always feel a bit misty about it, like Mrs Bertie reading Misunderstood or the old ladies in the audience (it can't be sentimental if it makes Rowan shiver, can it?), by following it with Patrick's realisation that Lawrie can never have heard of St Stephen. The added Flight into Egypt sounds pretty effective too.

The last few pages of the chapter are gorgeous, I think. The audience standing (gulp); the moment when Nicola sees her grandmother looking surprised, the nostalgia of Dr Herrick's reading of 'Once in Royal David's City' (for some reason on this readthrough, I have been thinking a lot about Dr Herrick: how incredulously relieved he must be that it all went off so well!); Patrick's embarrassed dislike of the Victorian admonitions in the third verse (I can never hear it without thinking of him; as a child I thought the presumption of 'Christian children all must be / Mild, obedient, good as he' positively blasphemous); Patrick's interest in people 'out of context' and their 'chameleon blood'(Forest seems to have thought back to this attraction when she wrote the exchange in Cricket Term between Nicola and Ann about Ginty's opalescent changeability; clearly it's one of the Merrick Boy's kinks).

And the last sentence of the chapter...no words.





This does anti-climax brilliantly, I think, with the parental natter: Pam's embarrassment at the Marlows 'swarming rather', as it's later put; the faintly ominous mention of Ginty's good looks by Mrs Merrick, juxtaposed to both mothers' assumption that the real friendship is between Nicola and Patrick; Mrs Marlow worrying about Lawrie in 'ghastly lodgings and tenth-rate reps' (this has been your regularly scheduled &c.; I always think a crossover with An Awfully Big Adventure); the glimpse of Mr Merrick's visit to Esther (this has been &c.) which seems to have perhaps prompted Mrs Thorne's conscience.

I'm intrigued by Nicola's attribution of Lawrie's successful performance to her being 'afraid of lots of things', especially since there is such an emphasis in the previous chapter on Lawrie's ability to transform herself, to become someone else. On the other hand, Lawrie does draw from life in her acting: viz. the irony of using the moment when she found out that Nicola had been cast instead of her to portray disappointment at being left behind. And Nicola listening to Lawrie but paying little attention otherwise: I wonder how Nicola feels about Lawrie's triumph, given that Nicola prefers acting to singing, but has been repeatedly told she was never quite right as the Shepherd Boy and so on.

I also like Miranda's puzzled response to the improbability of the Christian story: 'so unlikely, it would have to be true' is in some ways not a bad approximation to certain understandings of the way faith works.

It is typically Forestian to end not with exhilaration, but with the apprehension of blood for breakfast, and I love it.



Right, quite enough from me. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts, and thanks for all your contributions so far.

[personal profile] legionseagle (to whom, grateful thanks) has kindly offered to take over posting on Peter's Room, which we'll begin with Chapters 1-3 next week. That post will go up on Thursday 25th rather than Friday 26th.
legionseagle: Lai Choi San (Default)

The Falklands

[personal profile] legionseagle (from livejournal.com) 2014-09-19 03:02 pm (UTC)(link)
Minor kick off point, but I have to say I was absolutely flabbergasted in 1982 when people were going round saying "Where are the Falklands?" and, worse "Who can be expected to know where the Falklands are?" Even without Nicola's specialist interests, "proceeding under tow to the Falklands for repair" was a pretty easy one to get, I thought. Any people's thoughts on this?

[identity profile] nzraya.livejournal.com 2014-09-19 03:57 pm (UTC)(link)
For some reason I always think of Helena as a convert upon marriage: though Patrick's reminder not to genuflect suggests the cradle.

But her "I have been in Protestant churches before, you know" retort could mean that she grew up in them, and converted in order to become a Merrick. Of course, she's certainly been a Catholic for as long as Patrick can remember, given that her conversion-upon-marriage would have preceded his birth (I assume!!). He might simply not know, or not really ever have taken on board, that she had a life before that.....


"So unlikely, it would have to be true" is EXACTLY my take on the Christian story (as, like Miranda, a skeptical Jew -- atheist, really -- who teaches the Gospels as literature, and enjoys them very much from that perspective). The impossibility of the story is what underwrites its veracity. As Tertullian never actually wrote, "Credo quia absurdum est," or in plain English, "You can't make this stuff up."

I see from Wikipedia that my attitude has been officially denounced as un-Catholic by ye olde Pope Benedict, however, so I stand suitably chastised.

[identity profile] jackmerlin.livejournal.com 2014-09-19 04:00 pm (UTC)(link)
It's interesting that both twins can inspire other people to be better at their things - when playing with Nicola the netball team all play better than they usually do, and when acting with Lawrie all the other girls act better.

[identity profile] highfantastical.livejournal.com 2014-09-19 04:20 pm (UTC)(link)
Trivial point: Copper Kettle still here (I live in Cambridge), I think! If have to pop out and check because I'm usually oblivious to my surroundings and have never eaten there, but 99.9% certain.

Re: More Copper Kettle Trivialities

[identity profile] mainerobin.livejournal.com 2014-09-19 04:50 pm (UTC)(link)
I remember the Copper Kettle on Kings Parade from when I lived in Cambridge in 1983. And that being where I discovered the Forest books, has been the Copper Kettle in Wade Abbas ever since. I remember them being vegetarian (unusual at the time) and having rather good pastries, and it was the only place one could get herbal tea.

The Play

[identity profile] mainerobin.livejournal.com 2014-09-19 04:59 pm (UTC)(link)
There are so many things in these last chapters that quite make up for the anguish one must read through to get here. You mentioned so many of my favorite points: N and M's plan to help Esther, and the absurd craziness of the four of them all planning how to make the swap until Cromwell brings them to a crushing halt, and Jan's support of Miranda, and everything coming together at the last possible moment, followed by the ending anticipation of dreaded "blood for breakfast."

It always does trouble me a bit that the staff can't think of anyone other than Miranda who could be relied upon to In their minds' eyes they saw the individuals who now sat, a bored and restless group at the back of the Minster: the stupid, the inattentive, the uninterested, the willing-but-incompetent—not one face came to mind as belonging to a person able to be pitchforked, at the twelfth hour, into an unrehearsed part and make a workmanlike job of it. Troubling to discover Kingscote students aren't more capable than that.


[identity profile] highfantastical.livejournal.com 2014-09-19 05:06 pm (UTC)(link)
The Rainbow is still there, but in my Bad Books because they were super-reluctant to adapt their stupid 'no reservations' policy even when we explained that we were coming over with a wheelchair to leave at the top, and that I could just about get downstairs with a stick but couldn't stand up to queue. ACCESS FAIL; no points for them. (Eventually they capitulated, but it shouldn't have been hard.) I'm vegan, though, so v. few options elsewhere.

...sorry for sidetracking! Cafés fascinate me. But I am going to comment with 'real' thoughts later on, when less knackered. This was a great recap, btw.
Edited 2014-09-19 17:06 (UTC)

Re: More Copper Kettle Trivialities

[identity profile] mainerobin.livejournal.com 2014-09-19 05:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, it was quite a long time ago, and I could clearly have misread. I do remember heavy dark booths and chintz at one place. Perhaps I'm remembering two separate restaurants. Clearly it will require another trip to Cambridge to clarify this.

Re: More Copper Kettle Trivialities

[identity profile] highfantastical.livejournal.com 2014-09-19 05:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Cambridge-based AF meet-up, y/n?

...anyone else? :D

Re: The Play

[identity profile] nineveh-uk.livejournal.com 2014-09-19 05:16 pm (UTC)(link)
Indicative of Kingscote's allocation of 'parts' to students in quite another way? That there are probably plenty of girls capable of it, but they've been labeled as variously unsuitable. Goodness knows, the "uninterested" might just be uninterested because they haven't got anything at all to do!

[identity profile] mrs-redboots.livejournal.com 2014-09-19 05:26 pm (UTC)(link)
...juxtaposed to both mothers' assumption that the real friendship is between Nicola and Patrick

Well, at that stage, of course, it was. It wasn't until Peter's Room that Patrick became interested in Ginty, and I will say nothing further about that here as we'll be discussing it so soon.

Meanwhile, these are my very favourite chapters of one of my very favourite books. I am always amused by Nicola's conviction that if you rang up the House of Commons the person who answered would be the Speaker, which always seems totally logical to me. And poor Nicola, ruining The Cruel Sea, another of my all-time favourites; I wonder how old she will have to be to learn that on such occasions you re-read an old friend, not try something new.

Val Longstreet doesn't cover herself with glory during these chapters, does she? First of all she shows her incredulity that Nicola's MP might wish to ring her up, and then her utterly crass comment about Miranda, which, as Nicola realises, is actually far worse than Lawrie not being able to play the Shepherd Boy.

It's all a bit daft really, and the staff do seem frantically incompetent... and in the end, it was all for the best. And yes, the anticipation of Blood for Breakfast is far and away nicer than actually seeing it happening!

[identity profile] nineveh-uk.livejournal.com 2014-09-19 05:26 pm (UTC)(link)
I am interested that you find the "So unlikely, it would have to be true" line plausible, as I always felt it was like AF shoehorning in a "we should respect Miranda but actually she subconsciously knows that she is wrong" element. But then I was one of those children whose moment of revelation is the one that other people actually believe and are not doing it out of social ritual, and find that incomprehensible, rather than the other way round (though unlike Lawrie I did know what it was that people were believing).
legionseagle: Lai Choi San (Default)

[personal profile] legionseagle (from livejournal.com) 2014-09-19 05:34 pm (UTC)(link)
I dunno - I recall when I was a sixth-former walking through Trafalgar Square when there was a Jesus rally on and hearing someone shout through a megaphone, "And in no other religion has a God died and come back to life again!' and I was strongly tempted to yell back, "Not even trying! Try coming back and fathering a son after you've been killed, chopped into thirteen pieces, thrown in the nile, collected in instalments by your sorrowing wife and she's had to make do because your penis has been eaten by a crocodile! Try that as a resurrection mythos!"

[identity profile] hagsrus.livejournal.com 2014-09-19 05:37 pm (UTC)(link)
"Nicola's conviction that if you rang up the House of Commons the person who answered would be the Speaker..."

Going from memory here because I don't have access to the books* at present but wasn't it Winston Churchill she expected?

(*Did somebody mention the possibility of getting text files? They'd be so welcome!)

Random thoughts

[identity profile] emily-shore.livejournal.com 2014-09-19 05:44 pm (UTC)(link)
I wonder that there aren’t more questions about Nicola receiving phone calls from an MP about a dog, but perhaps I don’t run in quite the same circles as the inmates of Kingscote.

I wonder whether it's the sort of thing where having to ask marks you as being hopelessly not the right class. And so no one does.

I think Forest does a good job of suggesting Lawrie's talent: for me, the most telling detail is that she has the gift of eliciting better performances from the others; given Lawrie's self-conceit and self-centredness, this must be a pure function of her gift: I've worked with actors like that, though, and it is a real thing.

It's perfectly likely that Forest knew enough about acting to have observed this for herself, but it could also be another of the traits that links Lawrie to (as you know, Bob) one of Mary Renault's actor characters, Julian Fleming.

I also like Miranda's puzzled response to the improbability of the Christian story: 'so unlikely, it would have to be true' is in some ways not a bad approximation to certain understandings of the way faith works.

Have to admit that I read this completely differently. Miranda's observation has that tinge of Christian apologetics about it; I feel it falls somewhere in the neighbourhood of Lewis's trilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis's_trilemma). As such I have the sneaking suspicion that it sets Miranda up for a conversion from Judaism to Christianity, following in the footsteps of Forest herself. People will have their own opinions on the likeliness or the desirability of that, but for me that line definitely struck an "off" note.

[identity profile] mrs-redboots.livejournal.com 2014-09-19 05:53 pm (UTC)(link)
My text file says Churchill, but the Faber paperback I first read the book in (and still have somewhere, but goodness knows where) said the Speaker, arguably because readers of what it thought the appropriate age might not have heard of Churchill by then, or not realised he was an MP. I have to admit that, because I came on it first, I prefer the "Speaker" version.

Miranda and Christianity

[identity profile] emily-shore.livejournal.com 2014-09-19 05:53 pm (UTC)(link)
I am interested that you find the "So unlikely, it would have to be true" line plausible, as I always felt it was like AF shoehorning in a "we should respect Miranda but actually she subconsciously knows that she is wrong" element.

I missed your comment earlier and so already said this below, but yes. It sounds like Christian apologetics to me and I personally felt that Antonia Forest was maybe setting up a future conversion for Miranda (following in her own footsteps, of course).

Re: Miranda and Christianity

[identity profile] nineveh-uk.livejournal.com 2014-09-19 05:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Apologetics! That was the word I couldn't remember. I'm glad you did :-)

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