trennels | Friends at Kingscote/Trennels

And why would Tim be attracted to Lawrie, since they seem quite dissimilar?

Tim's a butch, Lawrie's a femme (indeed one of my favourite femmes in fiction). Nick's a butch too, and butch/butch couples often don't work, especially in school stories - hence Tim's switch to Lawrie.

There's a bit in Falconer's Lure where Nicola and Patrick spend the night in a haystack together discussing how queer everything is, which pretty much sums up my feelings on their relationship.

Definitely Miranda, though I suspect I'd end up going the way of Sandra Grigson within a term. I have an awful tendency to make Tim-like pointed remarks myself (though I'm much better at not doing it now than I was when I was fourteen) and I suspect if we became friends it'd just turn into a long-running duel and she'd win.

I don't think Tim dislikes Nicola - though I may be wrong about this - so much as that she doesn't think Nicola gives Lawrie her due, which of course is an absolutely outrageous inversion of the truth from Nicola's point of view, and also that she has a slightly Cromwell-like tendency to want her friends to stay in the very well defined place she lays out for them.

Though, I've been trying to think of things Nicola does that get on the wrong side of Tim's wanting her friends to always be there waiting for her when she deigns to pay attention to them (paraphrase - copy of Autumn Term isn't to hand) and so far have come up with Guides and sports, both of which Lawrie does too, so maybe that theory doesn't hold up.

Perhaps it's that Lawrie's willing to be part of a unit called Tim-and-Lawrie, being used to Nicola-and-Lawrie, whereas Nicola wants it to be Nicola-and-Tim if at all, thank you very much.

I definitely think that Tim believes in 'my friend the genius' implicitly, and sees things - not so much 'me and Lawrie against the world', that's too antagonistic, but she does seem to be utterly unaffected by most of the things that annoy the rest of the world about Lawrie, and I think possibly that's because she feels obscurely proud of them.

Hello there.

Miranda. Tim's too unpredictable, I wouldn't cope any better with her than Nicola. But Tim's too interesting not to want as a friend. I wouldn't have said Tim dislikes Nick, exactly.

I always rather feel for Peter over the Patrick thing: first Nick steals his friend, then Ginty...

I think you can feel jealous of a friend's being caught up in new romantic (or even friendly) interest, especially if this leads to neglect (e.g. the wild swans). Depends on the friendship, of course. I think Nicola might very likely feel hurt if Miranda had a New Best Mate, but she's clearly less bothered about Esther's apparent defection.

And in the case of Peter, it must have been agreeable for him to have companionship of another male (and one outside the family and Dartmouth hierarchy, where he is very much Giles's Younger Brother), so sisters horning in again would strike rather a nerve, perhaps.

Perhaps it's that Lawrie's willing to be part of a unit called Tim-and-Lawrie, being used to Nicola-and-Lawrie, whereas Nicola wants it to be Nicola-and-Tim if at all, thank you very much.

Hmmm, yes, definitely! I think it's Nicola's independence that might have put Tim off, since she's a bit of a leader too.

Oh yes, I agree it was understandable, but because I'm a little possessive, I wondered if other people would also see Peter and Nicola as behaving reasonably.

I think Nicola's resentment is a bit more justifiable, though - Patrick has been her close-ish home friend since the summer, whereas wasn't it more the case that Peter used to hang around with Patrick, but they hadn't seen each other for ages until Nicola met Patrick hawking?

I wonder about the Esther situation - Nicola seems to have felt it was Nicola x Miranda (+ Esther), so perhaps that's why Esther's possible defection wasn't so much of an issue to her.

Miranda. I think Tim's a nasty bit of work, and although Miranda goes through her own nasty bit of work phase (Sandra Grigson and the bazaar events being examples of it) she never actually makes me feel fundamentally worried as Tim does when she lets her guard down.

And I think Tim is aware that Nicola to a degree "sees through" some of her defence mechanisms ("one more infant rabbit keeping her little end up" may be a Rowanism, but it 's Nicola style thinking) whereas to a degree she and Lawrie can fulfil complementary roles; she's a stage manager and set creater, so she can put Lawrie into her best light.

On Peter/Patrick; Patrick has grown beyond Peter, and they don't actually understand each other on a fundamental level (which comes out both in the scene on the cliff in Falconer's Lure and the events which precipitate the crisis in Peter's Room). But Peter is known to be bad at making friends; Selby surprises everyone by being likeable and normal. Peter's poor judgment of character is a known character trait, so I suspect his jealousy is understandable but not reasonable.

Nicola is I think jealous of the attention Ginty hogs; I don't think she's jealous of the underlying relationship in the sense that she sees Patrick romantically, but Ginty does take active steps to exclude Nicola as if she were a rival (look at her agonising in bed about Patrick having said something about Alexander's conquest of India to NicolaP.

I'd want Nicola as a best friend (or possibly Rowan, actually) but the question is a bit like asking someone who'd read Gaskell's Life which Bronte they prefer.

Miranda, def. I wouldn't trust Tim at all not to just suddenly change her mind and side against you just because she felt like it (and I have a feeling she does at some point?) and then just expect things to go as normal, but if Miranda decided she didn't like you, I guess you'd know where you stood.

Re Nick/Patrick/Peter - tough one. I'd be annoyed if I was Nick - the people she always thought of as her best friends tended to go off with other people - first Tim and Lawrie and then Patrick and Ginty. Not sure about jealous but definitely put out and a bit hurt. A lot of it, IMHO, arises because Patrick is an only child and doesn't realise the impact that his transferring of his friendship from one Marlow to another will have on the family dynamics, even though his relationship with each of them is quite different.
I can never quite work out whether Nick's feelings for Patrick are romantic - perhaps they're heading that way but after the end of Attic Term when Patrick kisses Claudie, I think she might have to wait a while!

Marlow best friend - I always rather like Rowan. And i'd definitely want to marry Giles!

Quote: On Peter/Patrick; Patrick has grown beyond Peter, and they don't actually understand each other on a fundamental level (which comes out both in the scene on the cliff in Falconer's Lure and the events which precipitate the crisis in Peter's Room).

but in Thuggery Affair they work well as a team, I think, or perhaps it just appears so because of the contrast with Lawrie who really isn't thinking along the same lines as them most of the time!

Oh, I worship you for that response. And that also explains why, alone of the dykes I know, Lawrie is my "me" character.

Miranda, absolutely. I've always found her to be a very appealing character, outside of any comparisons with Tim - she's bright and high-achieving but unconventional enough to be interesting. Tim strikes me as the sort of friend who's too much hard work, requiring a certain sort of unequal relationship. That is why, I think, Tim is attracted to Lawrie - being friends with Lawrie ("my friend the genius") has a certain amount of cachet, but Lawrie's unlikely to challenge Tim's dominance in a way that Nick would (and indeed does, the first time they fight in Autumn Term, after Nick wipes Tim's cartoon off the board).

Unlike other people, I do think Tim dislikes Nicola - because, like someone else says, she doesn't give Lawrie her due; because she's not willing to be led by Tim (e.g. the pears incident in Autumn Term); and because Nicola's a fan of traditional, upstanding schoolgirl values in a way that Tim is not. Which is why Nick is kind of baffled as to why Tim dislikes her - that dislike is based on something that other people think is a virtue. Plus, it's just occurred to me that Tim is quite contrary, and there's probably an appeal to her in choosing the less-popular twin, and breaking up an established twosome like Nick and Lawrie.

I don't know if it's 'reasonable' for Peter to feel jealous of Nick's friendship with Patrick, but it's certainly understandable - as other people have mentioned, as the only boy (aside from Giles) in the family, he must feel rather isolated when going from being surrounded by boys during term time to being surrounded by sisters in the holidays, and so I can see why he would feel usurped by Nicola (I think it's in Peter's nature to seek out male companionship, in a way that Patrick does not - perhaps because Peter grew up with all those sisters). On the other hand, Nicola and Patrick's friendship, based as it is on shared interests and temperament, makes sense in a way that Patrick and Peter's does not. And in the same way, I can understand that Nick felt usurped by Ginty - I don't think she's jealous of Ginty being Patrick's girlfriend (because I don't think her feelings for Patrick are romantic - or if they are, she doesn't realise it yet), but she is jealous of the amount of time Ginty takes up, and I think she's also a little disappointed in Patrick for falling for Ginty.

I'd have Nick or Rowan as a best friend. Lawrie, Ginty, Ann and Peter would drive me crazy; Karen might be OK; Giles I don't think I know enough about. I think I'd really like Miranda or Patrick, though.

Oo! Lawrie is one of my girlfriend (Gerald)'s femme role models. Only yesterday, when a man and his tiny son (okay, about 10 years old or something) were connecting up our gas fire, Gerald was explaining to them in all seriousness that "I can't light gas, it bangs at me."

It's quite amusing how nearly everyone wants Miranda (I do too)! Poor Tim!

I think Ginty would be fun to have as a friend and hell to have as a sister.

Ah, yes (also, love Gerald's phrasing). Lawrie is irrational to others, but in her head it makes the most perfect sense. Basically, if you want to define "internally consistent", point to Lawrie. The bit that makes her my "me", though, is the boat-sinking scene in The Thuggery Affair, where everyone else is trying to stop them from dying, and Lawrie is thinking about the tragic obituaries.

Only three people on LJ have "lawrie marlow" listed as an interest, and only

debodacious and I don't also have Nick. Lawrie-loving is a niche market, but we're fervent.

I don't think Tim would mind, somehow! She'd just write us off as undeserving of her friendship.

Gin'd be fine as a friend if you were Monica, I think - but if I'd been one of her other pals in Attic Term, when she's doing her 'cat that walked' bit - I would have got annoyed quite quickly.

I think the point about Nick's love of schoolgirl values is very pertinent - key example being Nick wanting the tidiness shield, and then again later I think with best form - sorry, blogging at work is probably not the best idea...
And Lal, being the more immature of the two, is far more likely to follow Tim - when Tim tells them to be bad, Nick politely tells her to get stuffed, whereas Lal witters on about what a wonderful idea it is.
Lal is emotional, impeteous but hugely talented, whereas Nick's far more of a slogger, hardworking, talented sure, but a worker that works hard rather than a natural born genius. There's definitely something in the butch-femme argument as well.
In general terms, have to go with the status quo - although Miranda can occasionally be a bit snooty - as remarked by the Marlows in Autumn Term. She seems interesting, slightly edgy and has a wonderful father.
Re friends of the Marlows I think probably Gin would be the best one to be friends with - although, comme moi, a self-absorbed nightmare when there were boys around. I've always like Ro, but I don't know that the feeling would be mutual!

When I was Lawrie's age? Tim. Tim's devoted. And smart. And

gair's right: she's a butch, Lawrie's a fem. (Of course, I was a butch, too.) Tim would be a brilliant friend to have...

...except that now I'm not Lawrie's age, I do know about the problems of having someone who is devoted to you beyond reason, when you're not devoted back. And I'm not sure Lawrie is, though I don't think we've ever seen her friendship with Tim under stress.

Now I'm my age? Miranda.

Which of the Marlows would you rather have as a best friend? And why?

Nicola, I should think. Indeed, in a booky kind of way, I already think of her as a friend: I found C.S.Forester and Mary Renault via her. Though of all of them, the only ones I can't imagine being able to make friends with are Ann and Ginty.

yes, but Vee and such were retards (as shown by AF, and also remarked on by Nick(? I think), so you can understand...imo ginty only puts up with them because she's very insecure, and in Attic Term, without the counterbalancing of Monica around, she just can't stand them.

Which of the Marlows would you rather have as a best friend? And why?

I'm very tempted by Giles from what we see of him in Run Away Home, but I don't think I'd actually, in-real-life, want to get mixed up with someone who would go round setting off in inadequate boats with misplaced Swiss brats.

Oddly, the person I was closest to in my teenage years was pretty much a dead ringer for Ann.

Ginty would drive me demented, since I don't have Monica's sturdy sensibleness.

Tricky. I'd like to buck the trend and say Tim, because Tim's my favorite character, but I like Tim because I identify strongly with her, not because I'd like her as a best friend. Translated out of fiction, we'd probably be too similar to make best friends in real life. I'd still prefer her to Miranda, though. I find haughty, self-sufficient, accomplished people like her intimidating and inaccessible. I find Tim's wry, unscrupulous style a lot more human.

It's possible that Ann might be better to have as a friend than as a sister: look how popular she is with her Guide patrol, when she's not in 'Little Mother' mode. Though her form-mates do find her unco' guid over not playing the interform cricket match to lose.

That's actually one of the moments when I really, really like Ann.

Ooh, true. I'd forgotten about the cricket match, but they do seem quite tolerant about it, saying 'Just as you like, sweetie' and crossing her off the list - I don't get the feeling they're muttering in corners about her.

Then again, I never remember seeing Ann with friends at Kingscote - there's no one accompanying her to Early Service swinging their boater and talking about what a mess that was of a Sung Eucharist, or whatever. I kind of hope her friends are just less obtrusive than Ginty's mob, rather than being nonexistent.

I think at the beginning of End of Term Nicola tells Ann to go and find some of "her crowd" on the train to school, which may indicate the existence of friends - I certainly hope so!

There is a mention somewhere about Anne and her mates not being soppy like certain of their classmates who sigh drippily, while holding hands, over the Chinese robe in the art room.

She may have a whole entourage of people who depend on her to take of them and clear up their messes, but this goes, I think, counter to anything in the text which suggests more a rather robust competence in the school context.

Oh yes, wasn't that in Autumn Term? I don't think we're necessarily meant to infer that Ann has no friends because AF doesn't mention them - I don't think Rowan's friends are mentioned by name (Margaret Jessop and Jan Scott are team mates rather than buddies) but she's obviously one of the Kingscote personalities during her time there.

Patrick and Peter's was originally a preschool friendship--they couldn't have been much more than 6 and 7 when the war broke out. Even if their personalities had suited at that stage, that's not going to stay the same till their teens! Whereas Patrick and Nick don't really get to know each other till they're 13 and 15, and they've already grown into the same general sort of person before they meet, which I don't think Peter has.

I don't think that Nicola has any romantic feelings for Patrick before he goes gooey over Ginty; it's only really by the time of Run Away Home that I get the impression that Nick sees herself as a girl rather than a 'N. Marlow, RN' whose chances have been spoiled by inconvenient femaleness. :)

I'm surprised that Peter ever managed to make friends with Patrick, considering his subsequent track record :)

One of the few...another at the start of Attic Term when she's snippy with Nick (humanity at last!), and a conversation somewhere when Nicola realises that Ann sees through Ginty as well.

Agreed, though it's Lord Peter Wimsey I found through Nicola!

OT, but I love your icon and username! Power Of Three is one of my all-time favourite books.

Oh, I'd already found Lord Peter Wimsey - but yes, that would have been another one.

I found Forester through Nicola (and, I'm ashamed to say, got ridiculously pleased when I realised that the Marlow and Hornblower books go next to each other if you alphabetisis your fiction - God, I'm a geek!) and was overwhelmed when I realised she was a fan of Mary Renault, who's always been one of my very favourite authors.

Thank you! Power of Three is one of the all-time best books ever written, so you are clearly a discerning person.

Oddly enough, though she irritates me no end in the books, I have quite a few Ann-ish friends. Even down to the religion, which is peculiar, since I've always been a fairly prickly lefty Jew. Maybe there's something in that 'opposites attract' business. I prefer Nicola to read about, but despite certain similarities of taste I don't see the basis for a lasting friendship. In real terms I think I'd be most friendly with Ann - though not best friends.

I'd *want* Miranda as a best friend - she's certainly my favourite character, on the basis that she was the first fictional person I came across who more or less encapsulated parts of my world view. That bit about the 'common little Yvonne something or other' (books not to hand) who makes snide remarks about Jews rather sums up certain aspects of my private school experiences. However, I'm not at all sure that she would like me...

...Peter. Although whether that's because he reminds me of me or because I think we'd actually work well as friends, I'm not certain. Bit of both.

Friends at Kingscote/Trennels

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