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Hello all. I'm new here. I posted a comment a while ago anonymously as a response to another post, but hadn't realised that people don't really go back and continue older discussions. So now that I've got a proper log-in name and can start a new post, I thought I'd copy it here.

I've just been on a re-read of my books, and something struck me about the Marlow parents - they don't actually seem to know their children all that well. Maybe it's just a generation gap, or mabye it's because the children are away at boarding schools so much, or maybe it is something about their characters - they are not very observant or involved parents, at the least.

For example: Mrs Marlow gives the twins the lovely party dresses in Run Away Home, because (paraphrasing) "Karen/Rowan(?) commented how awful it must be for the two of you always having second-hand clothes". Why was it one of them who needed to point that out? Surely any fairly obvservant parent might have noticed that fact herself? Another example: When she writes to Nicola about leaving Kingscote, while she knows Nicola enough to know that she's the more sensible one and the better choice to have to leave, she doesn't really know how Nicola will react - again, it's Rowan who tells her Mum that Nicola would rather know if it was a possibility. Even back in Autumn Term and the twins are describing the Court of Honour, it's one of the others (can't remember who) and not the parents, that "suddenly sees how it had been", how the filthy full dress and formality of it all had made Lawrie tearful and Nicola tongue-tied, and the parents have to have it spelled out. It's Ann who notices that Nick is upset by the other laughing at their efforts to be credits to the family. There are various other examples as well, including some about the other children, where the parents ask "dumb" questions and the other children fill them in on what the other one is thinking or feeling. I can't think of many right now, as it's the Nick ones that stick in my mind, since I have most sympathy for her being misunderstood, but I remember noticing them when I was reading that it happened to the others as well.

The parents don't seem to have nearly as good a grasp on the emotional lives of their children as I might have expected: they don't know why they're reacting in a certain way, they don't see beyond the surface, they aren't as good at predicting how a particular one will react, etc.

On the other hand, I have never been to a boarding school, and I've never had children, so the separation from the parents/lots of time spent with sisters, and the generation gap, might have much stronger effects than I realised, and maybe it's not specially the parents' fault.

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I think the Marlow parents are incredibly realistic, especially as older parents (especially as far as the twins are concerned) parents of a large family.

I think it's natural that their siblings, who have had the same experiences, in the same environment, with the same cultural influences, would understand better how Nick and Lawrie feel about certain things than parents who were raised differently and are almost certainly, unconsciously, judging how the twins would react by considering how they themselves would react, or would have reacted when they were the same age.

It's a natural thing in large families that the children club together and tend to spend more time with each other than children in a smaller family, who might spend more one-on-one time with their parents. The children get to know each other better than perhaps they do in smaller families.

As far as their involvement and understanding of the emotional lives of their children goes, most of the Marlows (adults and children alike) are pretty reserved, and make a virtue out of not displaying extreme emotion. That's what makes Lawrie seem so very different among them.

I think boarding school children (and I'm one of them) tend to be much more independent than their counterparts, and I think children from big families also tend to be more independent. And I think the Marlows are a very realistic family -- the best parents can sometimes be completely clueless about why their children are reacting in a certain way, simply because they're not coming from the same point of reference. The adult Marlows are far more realistic than, say, the adult Maynards who are just a little too omniscient and prescient to be true.

I don't think that parents do neccessarily understand everything that goes on in their children's lives. Also, the way the Marlow 'rents are written makes them seem realistic from the perspective of Nicola & Lawrie - they don't understand why something like being chucked out of Guides is such a big deal.

Also, I always thought the Marlow parents weren't that old. I can t remember which book its in, but I had the impression that Mrs Marlow was only about 19 when she got married - assuming she had Giles about a year afterwards, that males her only about 40 when the books are written (and I always did wonder if maybe there was a shotgun wedding and that s why Madam Orly objected to the relationship so)

Oh, I don't think they're incredibly older -- but for the twins, they're at least another half a generation removed than they were when Giles was teh same age, and I think that makes a difference.

In "The Ready-Made Family", the main reason Mrs. Marlow doesn't want to stop Kay (who's under 21) from marrying is that she was under 21 when Geoff Marlow proposed to her. Mrs. Marlow's mother was dead against the marriage, but Geoff had announced the wedding in the Times and at the Hunt Ball, so it couldn't be prevented without creating a gossip's field day.

DSR

wonderlanded said, it seems very normal parenting to me. Also, I think it's the parenting that the children want. In The Marlows and the Traitor there's a little bit about how Mrs Marlow has her heart in her mouth a lot of the time, but tries very hard to be an un-neurotic parent. Can you really see Nick wanting a mother who's always into her personal feelings? They've been brought up very independently

With the Court of Honour, I can't see Mrs Marlow having beena guide, so very likely she'll have idea what they're like, or why they should be so awful. For the secondhand clothes thing, I don't think that it's really horrible for them having them all the time. There are eight children, and Nick herself says that that wasn't the reason they went to Changear - it's just nice to have one new dress for a change.

I don't think there's any "fault" here at all. The Marlows don't hold up well when they are compared to the more stylised parents of children's literature, where people are either good OR bad, and we are comfortingly told which, but compared to real life parents, they're very good, I think.

I agree that it doesn't seem likely that Madame Orly's daughter would know much about Guides (as Madame's character is shown). By the way, are we told anything about how she came to marry a Frenchman? And whether she is in fact French?

I didn't really mean it to sound like a fault, more just an observation. I don't know why I was sort of surprised they were like this, really, as certainly my own parents wouldn't have known that much about me or how I'd react to things, but - and maybe this is where I noticed it - my sisters most certainly wouldn't have known either. Maybe it's more the fact that Mrs Marlow could ask or find out from the other sisters what someone else was feeling that was the source of my surprise!

I don't mean to imply either that second-hand clothes were a particular problem, more the fact that it was something that an older girl had to point out rather than the mother noticing that it might be nice to have a new dress for a change.

And no, you're right, I don't see Nicola wanting a mother who's always into her feelings - in fact I don't really see her wanting to be too emotional with anyone. But I don't know that these examples are anything very personal - i.e. not things she'd have had to talk about or explain - more just things that I'd have thought the parents would have simply known from observing. I don't expect Nicola shared her feelings with Ann, yet Ann still noticed she was upset; I doubt she ever complained about lack of new clothes to Karen, yet Karen could still point out that a new dress might be nice, and so forth. I might have thought that a more observant parent would have just seen some of these things.

However perhaps it does just make the parents realistic, whereas what I want for Nicola is more than realism. I want things to be perfect for her.

And yes, on the whole I think the Marlow parents are pretty good compared to lots of other parents in children's literature. It's just somehow this aspect slightly surprised me. But it's not meant to be a particular criticism of them.

but - and maybe this is where I noticed it - my sisters most certainly wouldn't have known either.
Perhaps it is significant here that there are lots of sisters (and brothers). It isn’t that Ann and Rowan always notice things about one, but that sometimes Ann does, Karen sees something else, on another occasion it’s Giles etc. There are six siblings to notice things about Nicola and Lawrie against Mrs Marlow’s one.

Also as slemslempike pointed out above, sometimes it’s just closer knowledge of a particular experience that matters – Ann knowing about the Court of Honour, but also Rowan knowing from her own experience what it is like to come home for the summer holidays and find that one isn’t going back to school. It isn’t Rowan necessarily being incredibly alert to Nicola’s feelings when her mother isn’t, but being able to extrapolate from her own experience on to her knowledge of Nicola’s character, whereas Mrs Marlow has never been to Kingscote (or even to school? I can’t remember whether she had a governess) and lacks that personal perspective of what it’s like in September when everyone else goes off to school again and she didn’t.

Yes, that's a good point about the number of siblings just increasing the probability of [i]someone[/i] noticing something. I always wanted to be part of a really big family, as it seemed like it would increase the chance of having someone sort of similar to me or who understood what I was thinking, as my sisters were so completely different to me. On the other hand I still find it hard to imagine siblings being emotionally close in any sort of fashion quite strange.

And I'd not made the connection before about Rowan being more sensitive about the possibility of Nick having to leave suddenly because she too had the experience of not coming back after having expected to. I don't think that aspect explains all the examples I'd been thinking of about the siblings knowing more than the parents, but in this case obviously it's a very relevant factor, and I can't believe I'd never really noticed that before. I think it's still Rowan knowing more about how [i]Nick[/i] would react, not just basing things on her personal experiences and what she woudl feel - but simply having been in that situation might make her more observant about how the others might react, and therefore have more insights to offer.

How could I have never connected Nick's possibly having to leave with Rowan's leaving a year or two year earlier? Maybe it's because I read all the school books first and the holiday ones later, so I never really knew much about why Rowan had left or under what circumstances, and by the time I'd found that out, I didn't really think much about Nick leaving anymore because I knew how it turned out in the end!

How could I have never connected Nick's possibly having to leave with Rowan's leaving a year or two year earlier?
Well, I confess I never noticed it myself until I was writing that post!

But I am very close to my (two) sisters, so although we're not close in that TV 'we share everything' way (no sitting on our beds and talking about boys), I can make a reasonable guess at how they'll react in various situations, hence I wasn’t surprised by this in the books.

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