trennels | Telling the twins apart

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Telling the twins apart

Hi all, am new here, but can't see that this has been discussed before.

I was reading End of Term recently, and got thinking about whether AF's account of who precisely can tell Niccola and Lawrie apart stands up to scrutiny (aside entirely from the implausibility of their mother not being able to find the merest freckle, mole or scar to distinguish the unconscious Lawrie from Nicola in The Marlows and the Traitor.) There are lots of indications, not surprisingly, that members of staff and other Kingscote girls who don't know them that well can't tell them apart throughout the series. What interested me more in End of Term was the extent to which their siblings and close friends and classmates can or can't distinguish them.

When Lawrie and Nicola switch for the netball match after Lawrie bruises her leg, they sleep in one another's beds, and Ginty and Ann don't spot the ruse in the morning when Lawrie (as Nicola) pretends to be ill, though Nick at least seems to have a moment of tension when she's afraid Ann will realise - but both twins seem to be able to presume that neither of their sisters will see through the switch, or presumably they would have known in advance it would never have worked. Nick walks in to the gym, and Miranda, her best friend, likewise thinks she's Lawrie until she's told otherwise. Yet when they go in to breakfast Tim knows immediately Nick isn't Lawrie, and we're told she 'had never had the least difficulty in telling them apart'. From Nicola remembering what Peter once told her about how Lawrie always hitched at her stockings and Nick put her hands in her pockets, presumably he can tell them apart too (despite seeing an awful lot less of them than their sisters)? It's unclear whether Jan Scott has guessed before Lois guesses 'Lawrie' is really Nick, while watching her play brilliantly in the netball match, but it emerges that the outcast Marie Dobson has guessed, based simply on the way in which Nick bumped into her and apologised in the gym doorway earlier that day.

Is it plausible that siblings who share a room with the twins would be taken in by an identical twin switch, basing their interpretation of who was who entirely on situation stuff like who was in which bed/wearing which games kit etc? Is Ann just too honest and straightforward to suspect, and Ginty too self-absorbed, and we are to assume that the redoubtable Rowan would have seen through it in a millisecond, even if all concerned were wearing identical school uniform?

Are there ever any indications that any of the other Marlows can't tell the twins apart? Why has Tim never had any difficulty telling them apart, yet observant, intelligent Miranda is fooled initially, when Marie Dobson isn't? (Just that Tim has known both twins since the start of their schooldays, and is Lawrie's best friend, while Miranda only becomes Nick's close friend at the start of End of Term? Or has Marie's outcast status sharpened her powers of observation when it comes to pranks she's being left out of? She's sharp and sly enough to check Nicola's hat name tag to confirm her suspicions.) Esther is a new girl at the start of End of Term, and very diffident, but there is never the slightest reference to her checking that she's talking to Nick, rather than Lawrie, in the way that, say, Jess Geddes does when they find the hawk carving in the Minster.

Anyway, just wondered what anyone else's thoughts were. Is it plausible that even siblings' recognition of identical twins might depend heavily on context (that is Nick's bed, therefore the person in it is Nick)..?

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I'd not thought about it before, to be fair, but reflecting on it now - I could imagine that within a family you get ideas & preconceptions about other family members that people from outside the family might not be prone to. So Ginty and Ann could just have expectations not only about who is who depending on context, but also 'Nick does/is like this - Lawrie does/is like that', and an outsider might be less likely to fall into those traps? Not that that explains Miranda.

A lot of what we see is based on what we expect to see, especially when we don't have time and/or reason to think about it. Nicola doesn't give Miranda much time to observe who she is; IIRC, she comes into the gym, Miranda throws her a team girdle and says something like, "I hear Nick's ill," and Nicola explains. I am more puzzled by Tim spotting it at once; I could accept her seeing it before the end of breakfast, as they're sitting together, but not on sight, which is what the text suggests. But then Tim clearly knows Nicola very well, as she knows just how to needle her, so maybe ...

I suppose a key difference is that Tim knows both Nicola and Lawrie well, and has seen them together and apart a fair bit and in a range of settings. Whereas at this point Miranda knows Lawrie a lot less well than she knows Nick. Tim is also a cynical type ;-)

Tim's also likely to be more aware of the twins' smaller mannerisms and characteristics, from directing them in The Price and the Pauper, perhaps?

I used to have twins in my Sunday school class. Although one did have a very slight mole, which was the only way I knew which was which, if I hadn't known their names, I wouldn't have known which was which.

So, Tim who has been friends with them from the start of their school careers would probably be able to tell better than Miranda, who knew their names but not who was which. I can't remember if there was any mention of them having different hair cuts, or one pushing their hair behind their ears more or whatever. But there are usually subtle ways of how they move and dress, even in identical clothes, that people who did know them would pick up on.

As for the sisters in the bedroom, if someone gets out of Twin A's bed in the melee of morning washing and dressing, without the help of hair cuts or other distinguishing marks, would they suspect it wasn't Twin A. There was mention of how Nick is when she's ill, so Lawrie was being Nick-being-ill. If Anne is used to Lawrie-being-ill and Nick-being-ill, again, she may not even suspect.

If each of the twins was taking care to try and act like the other, the people who didn't know them intimately wouldn't have a clue and the sisters could be sufficiently distracted by trying to get down to breakfast, whereas Tim would know instantly and I bet Marie was the kind of person who secretly watched how other people behaved. There was mention in the whole fire in the rickyard business that Marie could remember the details of the lies she told, so she probably took notice of little details in case she had to use them in any future story.

Tim had that extra term with Lawrie in Third Remove when Nicola was moved up first and Nicola's friendship with Miranda is only starting to be close that term so Tim has a year's head start. Marie was also with them in Third Remove and Guides and I agree about her as an outsider watching more.

With Ann and Ginty you'd think they would twig after talking to either of them for very long but they don't have very long, they see what they expect to see and they are up against Lawrie pretending to be Nick all stoical rather than her own fuss and woez.

Right, exactly, I think the sisters get a pass based on the fact that Lawrie is an Acting Genius who is playing Nick....

I remember Nicola isn't all that happy when she realises that Lawrie is playing her being ill! :-) Nobly going down with her ship.... Yes, this made me think about how well I tell twins apart, which isn't very. It's much easier to do when the twins are together, if you know them, as in side by side in front of you! Not together, well, I'd often have to ask and sometimes be wrong, because I don't see the twins I know very often.

I agree that the people who didn't twig didn't have much of a chance to work it out with L and N. I remember a story when I was in school, of identical twins who went to different schools, one in our school, which is how I knew. They switched for April Fools. All the students knew but the teachers didn't have a clue!

Yes, Lawrie playing Sick Nick always makes me smile, as Nicola uneasily wonders whether, if she's really like that when ill, it isn't a bit tiresome. Though it's interesting to think of Lawrie being psychologically acute enough to get all of Nicola's mannerisms down realistically when a lot of the time she comes across as entirely self-absorbed and babyish.

Tim's a cartoonist: it doesn't surprise me that she's a sharper observer than most of faces and behavioural tics. And to my mind, Marie has the acute awareness of other people which can come from being bullied. It's an important security mechanism to know exactly who's around you and what kind of mood they're in.

Both Ann and Ginty are mainly fooled by Lawrie's acting, and don't even notice Nicola; and as someone said above, Miranda's skills aren't tested, because Nicola tells her as soon as they see each other.

At the start of the Cricket Term, Nicola is called to see one of the staff (Miss Kempe?) in the sunk garden, and the teacher thinks it's Lawrie. But she's quite willing to accept it's Nicola when she's told. I reckon the netball team mix-up would be similar - most people might think "Lawrie" looked more like Nicola, but would just assume they were wrong.

(I've been to a football match - not the World Cup Final - where a Burnley player was booked twice, which should have been an automatic sending off. But the ref got the player numbers mixed up - and although the incidents were clearly seen by both linesmen, the fourth official, the complete opposition team, the manager and all his officials, and 7,000 people in the crowd - all those people assumed the ref must be right, we must be wrong, and our man stayed on the field. It's astonishing how many people can disbelieve the evidence of their own eyes if they think someone else knows better.

Tim never assumes she's wrong - she doesn't believe she's ever wrong. Marie got the hint when Nicola used her own desk and writing box, and followed it up for proof. Jan and Lois recognised the style of play, and both would have been quite prepared to do the same (Jan because she disregards rules and conventions, Lois because she's naturally deceitful) so both were temperamentally inclined to believe what they saw. Miss Craven wasn't watching the junior match, or she would have noticed. Ann is too honest for the switch to have occurred to her, and Ginty doesn't seem particularly close to either Nick or Lawrie. And for Esther, is there any recorded occasion when she did talk to Lawrie without Nicola being present? I think Esther faded into the background when Nick wasn't there. IMHO.p - and although the incidents were clearly seen by both linesmen, the fourth official, the complete opposition team, the manager and all his officials, and 7,000 people in the crowd - all those people assumed the ref must be right, we must be wrong, and our man stayed on the field.

Tim never assumes she's wrong - she doesn't believe she's ever wrong. Marie got the hint when Nicola used her own desk and writing box, and followed it up for proof. Jan and Lois recognised the style of play, and both would have been quite prepared to do the same (Jan because she disregards rules and conventions, Lois because she's naturally deceitful) so both were temperamentally inclined to believe what they saw. Miss Craven wasn't watching the junior match, or she would have noticed. Ann is too honest for the switch to have occurred to her, and Ginty doesn't seem particularly close to either Nick or Lawrie. And for Esther, is there any recorded occasion when she did talk to Lawrie without Nicola being present? I think Esther faded into the background when Nick wasn't there. IMHO.

Yes, and there are other times when mistresses get them mixed up too. There's that time when a prefect (the 'steaming nit' Gina something?) mistakes them and tells Lawrie Miss Keith wants to see her, and Lawrie comes back all cross because she went and tidied up and almost put on a clean blouse.

I think those are all very understandable. I suppose I was just interested in who did or didn't mix them up making their peers. I know it would have been dull to have every conversation outside their social circle behind with a who's who check, but I could imagine diffident Esther when new hovering when she sees a solo twin to check it's Nicola, not Lawrie...

My mother and aunt were identical twins. Nevertheless even in their childhood photographs we can tell which was which.

Michael

My mother was also an identical twin. The family could easily tell them apart, but other people had difficulty. However in childhood photos we often can't tell which is which, and we regret not asking them ti identify themselves when they were still alive.

I've always assumed, based on no actual knowledge, that identical twins would be pretty poor at telling themselves apart in photos - the reason being, they've never had to do it in real life. Nick's never looked at Lawrie and wondered even for a moment which twin she is.

I always found it incredible. There never seemed any rationale behind who could tell them apart or when. It is only an issue when it suits the plot. Sometimes l am not sure whether to be impressed with AF's willingness to distort reality or annoyed. There are a lot of other things that puzzle me: selfassured Patrick being shy, 18 year old Karen being such an expert on everything, Rowan and Janice Scott being so worldly wise, but perhaps above all Patrick being allowed to take an o level a day late having been alone all day. How did his father manage to swing that? The special treatment for an mp's son is a scandal. Sorry to ramble

The O Level thing isn't a "special treatment for MP's son" scandal. It was a private arrangement with the school, where the school would agree to do what they could to let him take the test, and Mr Merrick would agree not to cause a scandal with the school. In Run Away Home, Patrick says that someone who thought on official lines said his O Level probably wouldn't count. (There are precedents for taking O Levels out of the proper time, most commonly when you have a clash of papers, but they generally depend on having been under direct supervision of a teacher throughout.)

The taking of the exam certainly doesn't mean that the paper will be marked or a grade awarded; it's clear from the story that the school will do its best to put forward the paper and get it accepted by the exam board, but sitting the paper is a stage, not the end result.

If you are planning to miss papers, they certainly do take a strict view - when I was doing my A levels in the late 1990s, my English history paper and physical geography II papers (different exam boards) were scheduled on the same morning. We had to be very closely supervised between taking the 3 hour history paper in the morning, and the delayed 3 hour geography paper in the afternoon - we had supervised packed lunches in the middle of the playing field, and escorted to use a loo which was closed to everyone else (for example).

Mainly, however, I remember that doing two three-hour exams in one day was pretty hard work!

I don't find it particularly implausible - having 2 younger sisters, and having been at boarding school (although never having shared a room at school with my sisters).

We know from other descriptions of life at Kingscote that the mornings are as you'd expect at boarding school - bells, people getting washed, dressed and going to do things before breakfast or chapel. It's not a time for concentrating on other people in your dormitory, so long as they are doing reasonable and expected things. And in the case of the netball switch, they are - one staying in bed, the other getting dressed in the expected manner for netball.

In addition, Ann and Ginty are acting in accordance with their generally-described character - GInty's pretty self-absorbed, Ann's trusting and straight-forward, seeing what she expects to see.

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Telling the twins apart

Interesting question!

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