[identity profile] lilliburlero.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] trennels
Posting on behalf of [personal profile] legionseagle, to whom, thanks once again.--L.B.


Three more chapters, taking us through to the end of Twelfth Night, and with Gondal and real life getting ever more entwined.




Lots of torture and betrayal here. First, of course, and straight out of the Claudius, King of Denmark playbook, we have the "kill the bearer of this dispatch" dispatch. (I am never quite sure what the recipient of a " kill the bearer of this dispatch" dispatch is supposed to do about it. I'm relieved to note that Navarre, at least, considers "one of Alcona's plots" as not only one option, but the most likely. Personally, if I'd been Angora and the dispatch had reached me as planned, my nostrils would have been thick with the stench of semi-decayed rodent, too.)

Then there's Lawrie's working in of her private backstory, which is in my view extremely well done. Interestingly, in the light of Nicola's nightmare in the next chapter, that it's she who says, "You can imagine much worse things than she could ever say". Another working through of the consistent character note that Nicola is at least as imaginative as Lawrie, but deals with it differently? Also, Nicola plays up to support Lawrie here as she later plays up to support Patrick, with her "Jolly sensible, too." It's a very rare example of her making her presence known.

Finally, of course, there's Patrick's betrayal. From an artistic standpoint and from the point of view of subverting obvious tropes his decision to have Rupert crumble not under torture but under fear of torture seems unquestionably the right one. Nevertheless, how Patrick chooses to do it – springing it on his fellow-players without warning, and making their own preparations null and void ("And I'd thought up some such good tortures, too") – is itself a betrayal. Furthermore, it produces yet another TMATT echo, the war-time Commando raid in which Foley "had a better idea" and which led to "the highest casualties of any of the smaller raids."

Patrick carries the day this time, mostly (shades of Mansfield Park again?) because his proposal gives Lawrie and Ginty's characters more chance of drama. However, it would be extraordinary if resentment didn't linger as a result, especially with treachery being such a – literally – unspeakable topic with Peter. Patrick wants to play with the "how would you feel if someone you liked and admired turned out to be a traitor?" plotline and it stopped being play for Peter nine months ago.








Any thoughts about whether Nicola's nightmare is prompted by sub-conscious unease about Gondal? It's apparently a recurring one, though one she has not had "for years" (before Kingscote, then.) I suspect it, too, of tying into her fear of ghosts.

I've always had a soft spot for this chapter, not least because Nicola is simultaneously brave and faintly ridiculous (I love Rowan's practical advice about which end one holds a poker for bashing purposes). Also, two Marlows having an honest and open conversation about their feelings, plans and intentions – wonders will never cease.

Somewhat surprised by Nicola's apparent ignorance at how one becomes a vet, and vicariously depressed on Rowan's behalf by the sheer dreariness of her current life and surroundings (and is Nicola the only person who's spotted it?)

No wonder the poor woman is starting to think of whisky as "one of the better inventions" (though I've no idea what hot water, glucose and whisky is going to do to the metabolism of new-born lambs – anyone from a farming background fancy supplying a view?)

The idea of Nicola and Rowan becoming "Two Terrible Tweedy Types known far and wide as The Queer Miss Marlows" is a frankly horrifying vision of a possible future; it's odd, in a way, that Nicola doesn't link the Brontes' urge to Gondal as part of their own attempt to mitigate a closely related lot in life.

Still, some insight into what Nick wants to do with her life, which struck me as alarmingly wild and wacky when I read it the first time, at the age of 13, but a lot later, having met people who actually had done that sort of thing, it starts to look like more of a plan (though I suspect Nick does not yet realise how much bar work is likely to be involved in the whole thing.)

I adore Rowan's non-plussed "Said I wasn't like Charlotte Bronte?" and also her deep suspicions that the lower deck are planning a surprise play – in terms of apples not falling far from the tree, despite the smell of manure, I think there's a broad streak of Madame Orly about Rowan and her ruthless judgements.






Following the pattern of two manageable chapters and one massive, packed one, we get, in quick succession:

1. Ginty riding Catkin – I shall leave it to the equine experts to comment on the details, here, though it certainly sounds at this point that Mrs Marlow has managed to pair the right pony with the right daughter in a way that does, in fact, bring out the best in both;
2. Preparations for the party, which I find personally hilarious, particularly "the gremlins had taken everyone's evening bags and shoes and hidden them away in drawers and cupboards where their rightful owners would never have dreamed of putting them."
3. Peter playing Daks at chess while being Malise playing in the finals of the army championship "which meant he had to win" (first time as tragedy, second time as farce?)
4. Lawrie's response to Ginty's "expensive and exclusive" bath salts with "I say, what a ghastly stink! What on earth is it?"
5. Doris's apotheosis as dressmaker of genius (I like the artistic temperament which makes her baulk at turning it into a profession, but I do find it a bit implausible – albeit necessary for dramatic purposes – that she doesn't make more of an effort with her own clothes. Nevertheless, another variant on the theme of people with rich creative inner lives hidden beneath workaday exteriors.)
6. Introduction to Meriot Chase, which seems to have even more implausible add-ons even than Trennels, including the rococo ball-room and the chapel.
7. Thoughts on the party? I know it's the 'fifties (or very early 'sixties) and the Merricks are landed gentry and an MPs family to boot, but isn't it all terribly formal? And how many are at it, anyway?
8. I love Nicola and Oliver Reynolds getting on well together mainly because of the bond of social awkwardness.
9. And Lawrie being found "roaring drunk" by her host on the back stairs.
10. And Rowan's success with the "gallant, mildly flirtatious old gentleman" and Karen "revolv[ing] with unexpected expertise" in the arms of Ronnie who was "in the Brigade and looked all that implied"*.
11. And the Marlows at the very end with the Merricks, like a much less embarrassing take on the Bennets after the Netherfield ball.

Of course, this leaves out the central question raised by the whole chapter. What on earth is that Merrick boy playing at? (I'm fairly clear what Ginty's playing at, though alternative takes gratefully received.) It's made more than a little stranger in that Patrick is simultaneously playing Rosina's lover and her father, who is manoeuvring to sabotage the relationship while taking a voyeuristic pleasure in watching it. If anyone wants to write fic from the case notes of a (much older) Patrick's (classically Freudian) psychotherapist, consider yourself prompted.



*I suspect Miss Forest may not quite have meant all that implied, but [livejournal.com profile] lilliburlero wrote me this fic in the Renault Exchange which boldly goes wherever Forest may have fallen short as regards Ronnie the Guardsman. I heartily recommend it.

Date: 2014-10-10 05:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrs-redboots.livejournal.com
The ball always rang very - horrendously - true to me, having been obliged to attend such events as a teenager. Mind you, I always looked nice - no ghastly white net that looked like a child's party-dress (I had those, too, over pink or blue nylon, but not when I was ball-going age).

Date: 2014-10-11 09:09 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I have to say that Doris turning into a fabulous dressmaker, despite not taking an interest in her own appearance, never really rang true for me. Surely someone with that good an eye for colour, style, etc, to the point of making up her own patterns even, would show an artistic aspect elsewhere.

but it's a lovely idea, a cinderella moment

-res23

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Doris

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Re: Doris

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Date: 2014-10-10 06:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] occasionalhope.livejournal.com
Peter seems rather too keen on the torture scene.

Date: 2014-10-10 06:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] scarletlobster.livejournal.com
Over-compensating a bit, surely: we know that he loses his head in a crisis. And probably a bit hormonal as well. But I agree that it seems disconcertingly blood-thirsty.

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Date: 2014-10-10 07:33 pm (UTC)
legionseagle: Lai Choi San (Default)
From: [personal profile] legionseagle (from livejournal.com)
Yes; that struck me, too. Especially given the scene with Nicola in the kitchen which Doris broke up, in an earlier chapter. I imagine he was responsible for the sword heated in the fire, for example.

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From: [identity profile] scarletlobster.livejournal.com
I think this is quite a poignant moment for Rowan. Nicola might not mind coming home AFTER she has been a Wren and travelled round the world. And Rowan agrees, that maybe you wouldn't mind being back home then, after a nice long period of freedom and adventure. I don't think we ever get much of a picture of what it was that Rowan loved about London: perhaps just being surrounded by different people, and not just sitting tiredly with her mother evening after evening. (Actually I have never thought her suggestion for Nicola makes any sense: how could one farm possibly sustain an entire vet? But it does lead to the lovely vision of the Two Queer Miss Marlows.)
From: [identity profile] jackmerlin.livejournal.com
When I first read PR, being a vet was a cool, aspirational, interesting thing to want to be. So I was always rather puzzled that Nicola thought it was such a dull idea, though I get that she wouldn't want to just come home and do it at Trennels. I suppose PR was published before all the TV programmes like 'All creatures great and small,' made being a vet popular. But Nicola could work her round the world being a vet, and would probably enjoy it more than waitressing.

Patrick/Rupert/cowardice and betrayal

Date: 2014-10-11 07:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sprog-63.livejournal.com
Patrick wants to play with the "how would you feel if someone you liked and admired turned out to be a traitor?" plotline

I read it much more that he wants to explore it for himself. His life is organised around following the dictates of one's conscience with respect to his Faith, which he takes very seriously - even at the times when he is not so sure about what he believes. The hinterland of betrayal, of yourself as much as of others, is what fascinates him (and of course what he struggles with in real life* in TTA).

Being the solitary person (only child, without important school friends) that he is, the effect of this behaviour on his friends, will, to my mind, be a far lesser compelling drive towards this theme than what it would be like for him.

Ginty, natch, being someone who lives her life through her perception of the effect she has on others, is very interested in the effect betrayal has on the relationships and none at all in what it would be like for Rupert himself. Of course whatever the outcome for the relationship she realises she can work in good Crispian&Rupert scenes! The thought that it is living with himself which would be particularly difficult for Rupert/Patrick rather than living without his friends wouldn't cross her mind.


*If I may use a phrase like "in real life" with respect to fiction in this way!

Re: Patrick/Rupert/cowardice and betrayal

Date: 2014-10-11 08:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nnozomi.livejournal.com
Yes, very much so--and I think it's interesting that Patrick points out sharply that he's never identified Rupert as Catholic, thereby carefully keeping the two issues of faith (with and without capital F) separate in his mind.

Re: Patrick/Rupert/cowardice and betrayal

Date: 2014-10-11 09:25 am (UTC)
legionseagle: Lai Choi San (Default)
From: [personal profile] legionseagle (from livejournal.com)
I think you're right about what's motivating Patrick; it would make sense of his assessment being so inward-focussed.

Re: Patrick/Rupert/cowardice and betrayal

Date: 2014-10-11 12:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] scarletlobster.livejournal.com
Yes, that's very well put. It always seems to me that apart from Patrick (and perhaps Nicola) they are oddly unimaginative about it. Rupert's experiences leading up to the intended torture - the verbal hints, the long wait, the sword in the flame - are horrific. Peter's assessment that Rupert is a 'complete heel' for not wanting to feel the white hot blade - come ON. And Patrick only persuades them to let him suffer this failure of courage by saying it makes the plot more interesting; he can't just say (which I'm sure is true) that most people would fail when faced with white hot blades.

Date: 2014-10-11 08:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nnozomi.livejournal.com
A couple of rambling ideas: One thing that always interests me here is that the character of Patrick-as-Rupert turning traitor is much, much more akin to Peter than to Foley. Rupert thinks treason is as wrong as the rest of them do; he just can't face the price he would have to pay to remain unstained. To me this speaks much more to Peter's fears and (lack-of-) coping methods than to Foley's careless "life might be more interesting as a traitor than otherwise" attitude.
--And what Foley is unwilling to face is not the sanctions that would have been placed on him by the black hats wanting him to turn traitor, but the punishments prepared for him by the rightful side thereafter. This is Rupert seen in a mirror, I suppose.
My brain has just produced Ginty's idea (or was it Lawrie?) of quicksnow, and suggested that it symbolizes Patrick in this book, especially where--in different ways--Peter and Nicola are concerned. Tell me another one, brain.

Happier topics: Being a fan of Edwins to come, I tend to imagine Karen (with her "detached expression" as she revolves with Ronnie) thinking of certain dusty Oxford library annexes, or something, and reflecting on how the pleasure of dancing with this handsome, clueless young Guardsman isn't a patch on the conversations she's had recently...er, I think I'm drifting into fic territory.

Date: 2014-10-11 09:27 am (UTC)
legionseagle: Lai Choi San (Default)
From: [personal profile] legionseagle (from livejournal.com)
By all means, take this as encouragement - perhaps even a definite shove - into fic territory.

I like the idea of Peter having the secret dread of letting others down because of just not having the right qualities in a pinch; it ties into the boat thing, it ties into Leeper's Bluff and so forth. But I wonder - bearing in mind it was Nicola who got all the tete-a-tetes with Foley - whether Peter's ever thought about what was motivating Foley, or if he's shied away from that, too?

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Karen and small children

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Re: Karen and small children

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Date: 2014-10-11 12:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sprog-63.livejournal.com
I'd be delighted to read it ...!

Unpopular opinion?

Date: 2014-10-11 10:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] schwarmerei1.livejournal.com
I'm not sure about others, but I found Chapter 7 being nearly entirely Gondalling to be quite a slog to read. I did like the bits where the characters interject and discuss the storyline and thereby reveal themselves.

I don't know if AF meant to weary us with the sheer weight of Gondal prose and persuade us that the characters are wasting their time?

If so, it's a bit of structural flaw for me. Rather like the opera Rusalka where the protagonist loses her voice for the entire middle section. Problematic!

Or do others find the actual Gondal story enthralling?

Re: Unpopular opinion?

Date: 2014-10-11 10:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] buntyandjinx.livejournal.com
Nope, I find the Gondal bits dire - they're well written but they are not to my taste at all. I like realism which is why I love AF so much. I don't think it is her intention to weary us, though, I think she's having fun in another genre and she succeeds very well, it's just not for me!

Re: Unpopular opinion? Getting into Gondal

Date: 2014-10-11 10:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sprog-63.livejournal.com
I know what you mean, it took me many years of re-reading to get into Gondal. What got me interested in the Gondal bits (after a decade or more of skipping them) was mentally inserting Peter/Patrick/Ginty/Lawrie/Nicola for Malise+Navarre/Rupert+Alcona/Cripian+Rosina etc. and once reading just the Gondal bits and skipping the "real life" bits as a disciplined exercise (clearly, I took my light reading seriously: whenever I tried before this to read the book as a whole I found myself skipping Gondal, hence reading only Gondal.) This way (name insertion) the characters (Marlow) came through the Gondal and I was able to integrate Gondal into the Marlow-verse much better and found myself enjoying these bits too.

But I still don't find Gondal itself enthralling - what I enjoy about these passages is the way the people I "know" deliberately and unconsciously play different roles (or not) to their real life personae. I suspect I still skim the prose passages, but enjoy the dialogue. The way Nicola's reluctance to participate comes through but is somehow woven into the Gondal-narrative as part of Nicholas' character instead, is something I enjoy: from her first, "Perhaps" said Nicholas doubtfully.

(That said, Dead of Night is my favourite Chapter in the book - and that has no Gondal!)

However I can't buy the idea that Forest wants us to see Gondal as a waste of time by writing bad prose! (Though it made me smile.) Rather she is writing as children trying to write dramatic, romantic, Bronte-influenced fiction might write: another example of experimenting with style which is taken much further in TTA?

Re: Unpopular opinion? Getting into Gondal

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Dead of Night

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Re: Dead of Night

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Feudal serfdom

Date: 2014-10-11 12:34 pm (UTC)
legionseagle: Lai Choi San (Default)
From: [personal profile] legionseagle (from livejournal.com)
To be honest, provided that they're paid something reasonably respectable, cash in hand (especially in the case of Mrs Sammy Barnes) it's somewhat more respectable than calling in a catering company who'll pay their people minimum wage and probably cream off any tips.

Re: Feudal serfdom

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Re: Feudal serfdom

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Re: Feudal serfdom

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Date: 2014-10-11 04:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] occasionalhope.livejournal.com
I think it's interesting that Patrick is so interested in exploring the feelings of betrayal in Gondal; yet is apparently completely unaware that his behaviour with Ginty is a kind of betrayal of Nicola. There's no indication that either of them are thinking about Nicola or her feelings or that they might be being unkind in any way at all.

I think maybe Nick's lack of enthusiasm for Gondal (which is beautifully brought out in every bit of half hearted dialogue she gets) is separating her from Patrick as well. She's not just being marginalised; some of it is that this aspect of their different tastes is making her less of the first-choice-companion. In FL and at half term, Nick went along with basically doing whatever Patrick wanted even when, e.g. the riding, it wasn't necessarily what she would have chosen to do herself; now, while she's still going along with it it must be obvious that she's less invested in Gondal than the rest, and Ginty's enthusiasm which parallels Patrick's (though perhaps in different ways and for different reasons) is more attractive.

Date: 2014-10-11 05:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jackmerlin.livejournal.com
When I read the AF books as a child I hated all the bits which were about Patrick and Ginty because it was so hurtful for Nicola. Friends going off with other people was a real and common thing in real life though, so I just hated it without analysing it too much. But now I look at exactly what Patrick is doing, it's utterly horrendous. It's his idea to create a character for Ginty to 'be'. Then he lets his character be 'in love' with her character, without thinking what effect it might have on the real Ginty. And of course his friend Nicola has been forgotten and abandoned without a thought. Maybe it starts off as subconscious exploration of sexual/romantic feelings but he keeps it up for a year!

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Patrick+Ginty+Nick

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Re: Patrick+Ginty+Nick

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Re: Patrick+Ginty+Nick

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Re: Patrick+Ginty+Nick

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Re: Patrick+Ginty+Nick

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Re: Patrick+Ginty+Nick

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Re: Patrick+Ginty+Nick

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Re: Patrick+Ginty+Nick

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Re: Patrick+Ginty+Nick

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Re: Patrick+Ginty+Nick

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Re: Patrick+Ginty+Nick

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on showing feelings

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Re: on showing feelings

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"Rosina or no, the geese should have been hers"

Date: 2014-10-13 03:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] antfan.livejournal.com
For years I couldn't understand what that meant - did Patrick and Nicola have some kind of shared interest in geese? (Do they? Is there a reference somewhere I missed?)

Then I decided it just meant that even if Patrick and Ginty were Gondalling - because that's what they were both into - Nicola felt that in other things, especially to do with animals, Patrick should have turned to her first.

Then I wondered is there some kind of implication there that while Nicola might acknowledge - unarticulated and reluctantly - that Patrick would turn to Ginty romantically, because she is older, that the geese incident indicates that Nicola has lost his friendship and is therefore most hurtful?

In short, I've never understood what it is about the blooming geese!
From: [identity profile] scarletlobster.livejournal.com
It isn't self-explanatory at all, but it feels right I think, in the context. The geese seem to stand for the kind of intense adventurous/ wondering experiences she had in Falconers Lure when she and Patrick go on their overnight expedition. Then, they lay wrapped in hay listening to the owls. Now, Patrick and Ginty marvel at the wild geese.

Re Ginty and Patrick and Nicola

Date: 2014-10-14 01:31 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I think it is a bit harsh to blame Patrick for the rift with Nicola. After all, he is deeply involved in the game they all set out to play, as are Lawrie and Peter and Ginty. Nicola is the one who is never really involved with the Gondal. Would he even be thinking of it in terms of his friendship with her? It's just a few days. Here he is doing this thing with the group, not deliberately excluding Nicola.
Except Ginty manoeuvres herself in!

Pip
(sorry I'm anonymous, I've just caught up and loving the read through - I hope it is ok to join in)

Re: Re Ginty and Patrick and Nicola

Date: 2014-10-14 08:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] scarletlobster.livejournal.com
Yes, it's a thought. At this point he is so emotionally invested in Gondal that he can't be bothered with someone who is not. He's still rather unkind at the party though, openly snubbing Nicola in favour of Ginty. Maybe when he only invites Ginty to see the chapel he has hopes of a bit of Gondelling or maybe he is so dazzled by the way she looks that he can't see anyone else in the room.

Re: Re Ginty and Patrick and Nicola

From: [identity profile] antfan.livejournal.com - Date: 2014-10-14 09:10 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Re Ginty and Patrick and Nicola

From: [personal profile] legionseagle - Date: 2014-10-14 10:26 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Re Ginty and Patrick and Nicola

From: [identity profile] antfan.livejournal.com - Date: 2014-10-14 10:32 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Re Ginty and Patrick and Nicola

From: [personal profile] legionseagle - Date: 2014-10-14 10:44 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Re Ginty and Patrick and Nicola

From: [identity profile] antfan.livejournal.com - Date: 2014-10-14 11:15 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Re Ginty and Patrick and Nicola

From: [personal profile] legionseagle - Date: 2014-10-14 11:42 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Re Ginty and Patrick and Nicola

From: [personal profile] legionseagle - Date: 2014-10-14 11:40 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Re Ginty and Patrick and Nicola

From: [personal profile] legionseagle - Date: 2014-10-14 04:01 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Re Ginty and Patrick and Nicola

From: [personal profile] legionseagle - Date: 2014-10-14 04:22 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Re Ginty and Patrick and Nicola

From: [identity profile] nzraya.livejournal.com - Date: 2014-10-14 11:34 am (UTC) - Expand

Honey and Flowers

Date: 2014-10-14 08:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] scarletlobster.livejournal.com
Peter 'slicks his hair down' with some of Giles's Honey and Flowers. No trace of this horrible sounding product today; I assume that it existed once?

Re: Honey and Flowers

From: [personal profile] legionseagle - Date: 2014-10-14 02:50 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Honey and Flowers

From: [identity profile] nnozomi.livejournal.com - Date: 2014-10-15 01:20 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Honey and Flowers

From: [personal profile] legionseagle - Date: 2014-10-15 01:22 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Honey and Flowers

From: [identity profile] ethelmay.livejournal.com - Date: 2014-10-14 08:19 pm (UTC) - Expand

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