Posting on behalf of
legionseagle, to whom, thanks once again.--L.B.
Three more chapters, taking us through to the end of Twelfth Night, and with Gondal and real life getting ever more entwined.
Lots of torture and betrayal here. First, of course, and straight out of the Claudius, King of Denmark playbook, we have the "kill the bearer of this dispatch" dispatch. (I am never quite sure what the recipient of a " kill the bearer of this dispatch" dispatch is supposed to do about it. I'm relieved to note that Navarre, at least, considers "one of Alcona's plots" as not only one option, but the most likely. Personally, if I'd been Angora and the dispatch had reached me as planned, my nostrils would have been thick with the stench of semi-decayed rodent, too.)
Then there's Lawrie's working in of her private backstory, which is in my view extremely well done. Interestingly, in the light of Nicola's nightmare in the next chapter, that it's she who says, "You can imagine much worse things than she could ever say". Another working through of the consistent character note that Nicola is at least as imaginative as Lawrie, but deals with it differently? Also, Nicola plays up to support Lawrie here as she later plays up to support Patrick, with her "Jolly sensible, too." It's a very rare example of her making her presence known.
Finally, of course, there's Patrick's betrayal. From an artistic standpoint and from the point of view of subverting obvious tropes his decision to have Rupert crumble not under torture but under fear of torture seems unquestionably the right one. Nevertheless, how Patrick chooses to do it – springing it on his fellow-players without warning, and making their own preparations null and void ("And I'd thought up some such good tortures, too") – is itself a betrayal. Furthermore, it produces yet another TMATT echo, the war-time Commando raid in which Foley "had a better idea" and which led to "the highest casualties of any of the smaller raids."
Patrick carries the day this time, mostly (shades of Mansfield Park again?) because his proposal gives Lawrie and Ginty's characters more chance of drama. However, it would be extraordinary if resentment didn't linger as a result, especially with treachery being such a – literally – unspeakable topic with Peter. Patrick wants to play with the "how would you feel if someone you liked and admired turned out to be a traitor?" plotline and it stopped being play for Peter nine months ago.
Any thoughts about whether Nicola's nightmare is prompted by sub-conscious unease about Gondal? It's apparently a recurring one, though one she has not had "for years" (before Kingscote, then.) I suspect it, too, of tying into her fear of ghosts.
I've always had a soft spot for this chapter, not least because Nicola is simultaneously brave and faintly ridiculous (I love Rowan's practical advice about which end one holds a poker for bashing purposes). Also, two Marlows having an honest and open conversation about their feelings, plans and intentions – wonders will never cease.
Somewhat surprised by Nicola's apparent ignorance at how one becomes a vet, and vicariously depressed on Rowan's behalf by the sheer dreariness of her current life and surroundings (and is Nicola the only person who's spotted it?)
No wonder the poor woman is starting to think of whisky as "one of the better inventions" (though I've no idea what hot water, glucose and whisky is going to do to the metabolism of new-born lambs – anyone from a farming background fancy supplying a view?)
The idea of Nicola and Rowan becoming "Two Terrible Tweedy Types known far and wide as The Queer Miss Marlows" is a frankly horrifying vision of a possible future; it's odd, in a way, that Nicola doesn't link the Brontes' urge to Gondal as part of their own attempt to mitigate a closely related lot in life.
Still, some insight into what Nick wants to do with her life, which struck me as alarmingly wild and wacky when I read it the first time, at the age of 13, but a lot later, having met people who actually had done that sort of thing, it starts to look like more of a plan (though I suspect Nick does not yet realise how much bar work is likely to be involved in the whole thing.)
I adore Rowan's non-plussed "Said I wasn't like Charlotte Bronte?" and also her deep suspicions that the lower deck are planning a surprise play – in terms of apples not falling far from the tree, despite the smell of manure, I think there's a broad streak of Madame Orly about Rowan and her ruthless judgements.
Following the pattern of two manageable chapters and one massive, packed one, we get, in quick succession:
1. Ginty riding Catkin – I shall leave it to the equine experts to comment on the details, here, though it certainly sounds at this point that Mrs Marlow has managed to pair the right pony with the right daughter in a way that does, in fact, bring out the best in both;
2. Preparations for the party, which I find personally hilarious, particularly "the gremlins had taken everyone's evening bags and shoes and hidden them away in drawers and cupboards where their rightful owners would never have dreamed of putting them."
3. Peter playing Daks at chess while being Malise playing in the finals of the army championship "which meant he had to win" (first time as tragedy, second time as farce?)
4. Lawrie's response to Ginty's "expensive and exclusive" bath salts with "I say, what a ghastly stink! What on earth is it?"
5. Doris's apotheosis as dressmaker of genius (I like the artistic temperament which makes her baulk at turning it into a profession, but I do find it a bit implausible – albeit necessary for dramatic purposes – that she doesn't make more of an effort with her own clothes. Nevertheless, another variant on the theme of people with rich creative inner lives hidden beneath workaday exteriors.)
6. Introduction to Meriot Chase, which seems to have even more implausible add-ons even than Trennels, including the rococo ball-room and the chapel.
7. Thoughts on the party? I know it's the 'fifties (or very early 'sixties) and the Merricks are landed gentry and an MPs family to boot, but isn't it all terribly formal? And how many are at it, anyway?
8. I love Nicola and Oliver Reynolds getting on well together mainly because of the bond of social awkwardness.
9. And Lawrie being found "roaring drunk" by her host on the back stairs.
10. And Rowan's success with the "gallant, mildly flirtatious old gentleman" and Karen "revolv[ing] with unexpected expertise" in the arms of Ronnie who was "in the Brigade and looked all that implied"*.
11. And the Marlows at the very end with the Merricks, like a much less embarrassing take on the Bennets after the Netherfield ball.
Of course, this leaves out the central question raised by the whole chapter. What on earth is that Merrick boy playing at? (I'm fairly clear what Ginty's playing at, though alternative takes gratefully received.) It's made more than a little stranger in that Patrick is simultaneously playing Rosina's lover and her father, who is manoeuvring to sabotage the relationship while taking a voyeuristic pleasure in watching it. If anyone wants to write fic from the case notes of a (much older) Patrick's (classically Freudian) psychotherapist, consider yourself prompted.
*I suspect Miss Forest may not quite have meant all that implied, but
lilliburlero wrote me this fic in the Renault Exchange which boldly goes wherever Forest may have fallen short as regards Ronnie the Guardsman. I heartily recommend it.
Three more chapters, taking us through to the end of Twelfth Night, and with Gondal and real life getting ever more entwined.
Lots of torture and betrayal here. First, of course, and straight out of the Claudius, King of Denmark playbook, we have the "kill the bearer of this dispatch" dispatch. (I am never quite sure what the recipient of a " kill the bearer of this dispatch" dispatch is supposed to do about it. I'm relieved to note that Navarre, at least, considers "one of Alcona's plots" as not only one option, but the most likely. Personally, if I'd been Angora and the dispatch had reached me as planned, my nostrils would have been thick with the stench of semi-decayed rodent, too.)
Then there's Lawrie's working in of her private backstory, which is in my view extremely well done. Interestingly, in the light of Nicola's nightmare in the next chapter, that it's she who says, "You can imagine much worse things than she could ever say". Another working through of the consistent character note that Nicola is at least as imaginative as Lawrie, but deals with it differently? Also, Nicola plays up to support Lawrie here as she later plays up to support Patrick, with her "Jolly sensible, too." It's a very rare example of her making her presence known.
Finally, of course, there's Patrick's betrayal. From an artistic standpoint and from the point of view of subverting obvious tropes his decision to have Rupert crumble not under torture but under fear of torture seems unquestionably the right one. Nevertheless, how Patrick chooses to do it – springing it on his fellow-players without warning, and making their own preparations null and void ("And I'd thought up some such good tortures, too") – is itself a betrayal. Furthermore, it produces yet another TMATT echo, the war-time Commando raid in which Foley "had a better idea" and which led to "the highest casualties of any of the smaller raids."
Patrick carries the day this time, mostly (shades of Mansfield Park again?) because his proposal gives Lawrie and Ginty's characters more chance of drama. However, it would be extraordinary if resentment didn't linger as a result, especially with treachery being such a – literally – unspeakable topic with Peter. Patrick wants to play with the "how would you feel if someone you liked and admired turned out to be a traitor?" plotline and it stopped being play for Peter nine months ago.
Any thoughts about whether Nicola's nightmare is prompted by sub-conscious unease about Gondal? It's apparently a recurring one, though one she has not had "for years" (before Kingscote, then.) I suspect it, too, of tying into her fear of ghosts.
I've always had a soft spot for this chapter, not least because Nicola is simultaneously brave and faintly ridiculous (I love Rowan's practical advice about which end one holds a poker for bashing purposes). Also, two Marlows having an honest and open conversation about their feelings, plans and intentions – wonders will never cease.
Somewhat surprised by Nicola's apparent ignorance at how one becomes a vet, and vicariously depressed on Rowan's behalf by the sheer dreariness of her current life and surroundings (and is Nicola the only person who's spotted it?)
No wonder the poor woman is starting to think of whisky as "one of the better inventions" (though I've no idea what hot water, glucose and whisky is going to do to the metabolism of new-born lambs – anyone from a farming background fancy supplying a view?)
The idea of Nicola and Rowan becoming "Two Terrible Tweedy Types known far and wide as The Queer Miss Marlows" is a frankly horrifying vision of a possible future; it's odd, in a way, that Nicola doesn't link the Brontes' urge to Gondal as part of their own attempt to mitigate a closely related lot in life.
Still, some insight into what Nick wants to do with her life, which struck me as alarmingly wild and wacky when I read it the first time, at the age of 13, but a lot later, having met people who actually had done that sort of thing, it starts to look like more of a plan (though I suspect Nick does not yet realise how much bar work is likely to be involved in the whole thing.)
I adore Rowan's non-plussed "Said I wasn't like Charlotte Bronte?" and also her deep suspicions that the lower deck are planning a surprise play – in terms of apples not falling far from the tree, despite the smell of manure, I think there's a broad streak of Madame Orly about Rowan and her ruthless judgements.
Following the pattern of two manageable chapters and one massive, packed one, we get, in quick succession:
1. Ginty riding Catkin – I shall leave it to the equine experts to comment on the details, here, though it certainly sounds at this point that Mrs Marlow has managed to pair the right pony with the right daughter in a way that does, in fact, bring out the best in both;
2. Preparations for the party, which I find personally hilarious, particularly "the gremlins had taken everyone's evening bags and shoes and hidden them away in drawers and cupboards where their rightful owners would never have dreamed of putting them."
3. Peter playing Daks at chess while being Malise playing in the finals of the army championship "which meant he had to win" (first time as tragedy, second time as farce?)
4. Lawrie's response to Ginty's "expensive and exclusive" bath salts with "I say, what a ghastly stink! What on earth is it?"
5. Doris's apotheosis as dressmaker of genius (I like the artistic temperament which makes her baulk at turning it into a profession, but I do find it a bit implausible – albeit necessary for dramatic purposes – that she doesn't make more of an effort with her own clothes. Nevertheless, another variant on the theme of people with rich creative inner lives hidden beneath workaday exteriors.)
6. Introduction to Meriot Chase, which seems to have even more implausible add-ons even than Trennels, including the rococo ball-room and the chapel.
7. Thoughts on the party? I know it's the 'fifties (or very early 'sixties) and the Merricks are landed gentry and an MPs family to boot, but isn't it all terribly formal? And how many are at it, anyway?
8. I love Nicola and Oliver Reynolds getting on well together mainly because of the bond of social awkwardness.
9. And Lawrie being found "roaring drunk" by her host on the back stairs.
10. And Rowan's success with the "gallant, mildly flirtatious old gentleman" and Karen "revolv[ing] with unexpected expertise" in the arms of Ronnie who was "in the Brigade and looked all that implied"*.
11. And the Marlows at the very end with the Merricks, like a much less embarrassing take on the Bennets after the Netherfield ball.
Of course, this leaves out the central question raised by the whole chapter. What on earth is that Merrick boy playing at? (I'm fairly clear what Ginty's playing at, though alternative takes gratefully received.) It's made more than a little stranger in that Patrick is simultaneously playing Rosina's lover and her father, who is manoeuvring to sabotage the relationship while taking a voyeuristic pleasure in watching it. If anyone wants to write fic from the case notes of a (much older) Patrick's (classically Freudian) psychotherapist, consider yourself prompted.
*I suspect Miss Forest may not quite have meant all that implied, but
no subject
Date: 2014-10-10 05:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-10-11 09:09 pm (UTC)but it's a lovely idea, a cinderella moment
-res23
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Date: 2014-10-10 06:27 pm (UTC)Re: "P'raps then I wouldn't mind coming home." "No. P'raps one wouldn't."
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From:Patrick/Rupert/cowardice and betrayal
Date: 2014-10-11 07:59 am (UTC)I read it much more that he wants to explore it for himself. His life is organised around following the dictates of one's conscience with respect to his Faith, which he takes very seriously - even at the times when he is not so sure about what he believes. The hinterland of betrayal, of yourself as much as of others, is what fascinates him (and of course what he struggles with in real life* in TTA).
Being the solitary person (only child, without important school friends) that he is, the effect of this behaviour on his friends, will, to my mind, be a far lesser compelling drive towards this theme than what it would be like for him.
Ginty, natch, being someone who lives her life through her perception of the effect she has on others, is very interested in the effect betrayal has on the relationships and none at all in what it would be like for Rupert himself. Of course whatever the outcome for the relationship she realises she can work in good Crispian&Rupert scenes! The thought that it is living with himself which would be particularly difficult for Rupert/Patrick rather than living without his friends wouldn't cross her mind.
*If I may use a phrase like "in real life" with respect to fiction in this way!
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Date: 2014-10-11 08:51 am (UTC)Re: Patrick/Rupert/cowardice and betrayal
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Date: 2014-10-11 09:25 am (UTC)Re: Patrick/Rupert/cowardice and betrayal
Date: 2014-10-11 12:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-10-11 08:49 am (UTC)--And what Foley is unwilling to face is not the sanctions that would have been placed on him by the black hats wanting him to turn traitor, but the punishments prepared for him by the rightful side thereafter. This is Rupert seen in a mirror, I suppose.
My brain has just produced Ginty's idea (or was it Lawrie?) of quicksnow, and suggested that it symbolizes Patrick in this book, especially where--in different ways--Peter and Nicola are concerned. Tell me another one, brain.
Happier topics: Being a fan of Edwins to come, I tend to imagine Karen (with her "detached expression" as she revolves with Ronnie) thinking of certain dusty Oxford library annexes, or something, and reflecting on how the pleasure of dancing with this handsome, clueless young Guardsman isn't a patch on the conversations she's had recently...er, I think I'm drifting into fic territory.
no subject
Date: 2014-10-11 09:27 am (UTC)I like the idea of Peter having the secret dread of letting others down because of just not having the right qualities in a pinch; it ties into the boat thing, it ties into Leeper's Bluff and so forth. But I wonder - bearing in mind it was Nicola who got all the tete-a-tetes with Foley - whether Peter's ever thought about what was motivating Foley, or if he's shied away from that, too?
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Date: 2014-10-11 12:07 pm (UTC)Unpopular opinion?
Date: 2014-10-11 10:06 am (UTC)I don't know if AF meant to weary us with the sheer weight of Gondal prose and persuade us that the characters are wasting their time?
If so, it's a bit of structural flaw for me. Rather like the opera Rusalka where the protagonist loses her voice for the entire middle section. Problematic!
Or do others find the actual Gondal story enthralling?
Re: Unpopular opinion?
Date: 2014-10-11 10:15 am (UTC)Re: Unpopular opinion?
Date: 2014-10-11 10:29 am (UTC)Re: Unpopular opinion? Getting into Gondal
Date: 2014-10-11 10:48 am (UTC)But I still don't find Gondal itself enthralling - what I enjoy about these passages is the way the people I "know" deliberately and unconsciously play different roles (or not) to their real life personae. I suspect I still skim the prose passages, but enjoy the dialogue. The way Nicola's reluctance to participate comes through but is somehow woven into the Gondal-narrative as part of Nicholas' character instead, is something I enjoy: from her first, "Perhaps" said Nicholas doubtfully.
(That said, Dead of Night is my favourite Chapter in the book - and that has no Gondal!)
However I can't buy the idea that Forest wants us to see Gondal as a waste of time by writing bad prose! (Though it made me smile.) Rather she is writing as children trying to write dramatic, romantic, Bronte-influenced fiction might write: another example of experimenting with style which is taken much further in TTA?
Re: Unpopular opinion? Getting into Gondal
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From:The ball/What does the Merrick Boy think he's at?
Date: 2014-10-11 11:44 am (UTC)feudal serfdomlocal labour.I don't think Patrick's doing anything terribly different from Ginty in essence--exploring romance and sexuality at what feels like a safe distance (but isn't). But Ginty's desires are reasonably clear to her and they're not very outré, whereas Patrick's sexuality, in between Catholic repression, self-absorbed fickleness and (I would argue on the evidence of the last quarter of Thuggery) ambiguous orientation is a more snarly affair altogether, to the point where he barely knows what he's doing himself: hence backing out just when they've managed to engineer themselves a love scene with 'I don't really know how people talk when they're in love'. I think they're both excited by the voyeurism/narcissism thing: Ginty comes up with the spying-from-above detail--it's a teenage version of the reflex that makes people enjoy having sex in front of a mirror or making a video of themselves so doing, isn't it? Not very odd really, though if it's not your kink it's horrendously embarrassing to contemplate (imagine how Nicola would recoil). Though it's Patrick who thinks it up,* Ginty's quite complicit in the vaguely incestuous dynamic occasioned by Patrick's double-casting too, but she is caught on the hop when Patrick brings real fathers into it by asking if she can stand up to her father when he's 'livid' (I'm not sure if Forest really meant more than Ginty's well-attested fear of 'rows' here, but the sudden intrusion of real life is suggestive anyway.)
*I'm amused by the alacrity with which he rejects the idea that Rosina might be Crispian's sister, which would seem an obvious way to add flirtation to the mix, presumably because Crispian's sister is in some odd way, Nicola.
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Date: 2014-10-11 04:03 pm (UTC)I think maybe Nick's lack of enthusiasm for Gondal (which is beautifully brought out in every bit of half hearted dialogue she gets) is separating her from Patrick as well. She's not just being marginalised; some of it is that this aspect of their different tastes is making her less of the first-choice-companion. In FL and at half term, Nick went along with basically doing whatever Patrick wanted even when, e.g. the riding, it wasn't necessarily what she would have chosen to do herself; now, while she's still going along with it it must be obvious that she's less invested in Gondal than the rest, and Ginty's enthusiasm which parallels Patrick's (though perhaps in different ways and for different reasons) is more attractive.
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From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2014-10-12 05:45 pm (UTC) - Expand"Rosina or no, the geese should have been hers"
Date: 2014-10-13 03:31 pm (UTC)Then I decided it just meant that even if Patrick and Ginty were Gondalling - because that's what they were both into - Nicola felt that in other things, especially to do with animals, Patrick should have turned to her first.
Then I wondered is there some kind of implication there that while Nicola might acknowledge - unarticulated and reluctantly - that Patrick would turn to Ginty romantically, because she is older, that the geese incident indicates that Nicola has lost his friendship and is therefore most hurtful?
In short, I've never understood what it is about the blooming geese!
Re: "Rosina or no, the geese should have been hers"
Date: 2014-10-13 05:48 pm (UTC)Re: "Rosina or no, the geese should have been hers"
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From:Re Ginty and Patrick and Nicola
Date: 2014-10-14 01:31 am (UTC)Except Ginty manoeuvres herself in!
Pip
(sorry I'm anonymous, I've just caught up and loving the read through - I hope it is ok to join in)
Re: Re Ginty and Patrick and Nicola
Date: 2014-10-14 08:30 am (UTC)Re: Re Ginty and Patrick and Nicola
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