Thanks to all who have contributed to the discussion so far, and to all our guest posters. I’m back in harness for The Thuggery Affair, which happens to be one of my favourite Marlows novels (possibly a minority opinion). It’s probably the most Marmite of the series, anyway. Prepared to be polarised.
This novel has the most threatening dedication that I think I’ve ever read: ‘To Anthony C./who asked for it/(in more ways than one).' Lawks. I’d start running, now. Anyone know who Anthony C. was, and if he survived to tell the tale?
The Acknowledgements seem to express some dubiety over the authorship of ‘I saw a man this morning.’ I’ve never seen it attributed to anyone other than Shaw-Stewart. Tim Kendall has a nice little blogpost about him here. Written into his copy of A Shropshire Lad! Proposing non-penetrative sexytimes with Lady Diana Manners (in the classical tongues)! Adorable.
Forest’s note on the temporal flexibility of the series raises more questions than it answers, I think. Published in 1965, The Thuggery Affair is the first novel in which the setting has notably shifted from a vague late 40s/50s to (rather self-conscious) contemporaneity with publication. Though End of Term and Peter’s Room were published in 1959 and 1961 respectively, there’s nothing very much stopping readers seeing them as essentially continuous with the 1948 in which Falconer’s Lure is explicitly set. Thuggery, however, is fairly emphatically situated in 1964: it’s set at spring half term, and the Beatles’ ‘She Loves You’ (released August 1963) is playing on the radio. Forest’s note is dated September 1964.
This effect will be a substantial feature of the series from here on, and I’m interested to hear what people think of it. On the other hand, the setting of the series heretofore has not been all that rigorously accurate, something to which Forest (inadvertently?) draws attention in her note to Thuggery: ‘(who cares that clothes and sweets still had to be rationed in 1947?).’ Well, as several people pointed out in the discussion of Autumn Term, sweets aren’t rationed in that novel’s version of 1947 (Tim is first seen munching chocolate), and though there is mention of Kingscote’s navy uniform being a utility measure in the early novels, clothes rationing (as opposed to Marlow ‘poverty’) doesn’t seem to be a significant factor in the Marlows’ sartorial lives. Is there even one mention of coupons? In my experience of grandparently Second World War (and immediate postwar) reminiscence, coupons loom very, very large. So in a sense, the Marlows have always existed in an alternate universe. Slightly oddly, to my mind, Forest seems to see Peter’s continued attendance at Dartmouth as a major difficulty: I find that relatively easy to accept as a fudge, whereas (for example) Nicola and Lawrie’s birthdate shifting from 1935 to 1951 requires for me a larger suspension of disbelief. Peter will be relieved to know that his author thinks his expulsion from Dartmouth is ‘unlikely’, though. She seems more confident about the matter than he is.
This blog post about Thuggery is well worth a read, for its thoughts about language in the novel, and also for the priceless reflection that
For so it is, and any implausibilities in its portrayal of youth culture do rather pale beside the fact that this is a novel about drug-running pigeons.
It’s also the first and only book in which Nicola does not appear, and I wonder how that affects people’s reading of it? Anyway, here goes.
The economy of the opening is fantastic, I think, establishing the novel’s interest in language--‘Lower Fourth’s Word of the Month’--the change of cast occasioned by Nicola's and then Ginty’s absences, referring to the unstable friendship dynamics between the Lower Deck Marlows and That Merrick Boy. Even the canoe itself seems to allude by omission to the Gondal. How long were those Christmas holidays, though, if Peter and Patrick had time to build a canoe after the Gondal had collapsed?
Lawrie’s fantasy of tragedy and heroism is a comic gem, and it ironically foreshadows her less-than-heroic part in the drama to come.
Peter’s desire to shoot one of everything seems to be shading it close to a reference to Jael, but instead the conversation swerves into more hazardous territory yet, with Patrick’s mention of Jon.
The chapter swithers beautifully between tension and release, with all three characters sometimes more anxious, fearful or disappointed than they’re letting on. Lawrie seems better than heretofore at controlling emotion, though it’s interesting that she largely does it with fantasy or a determined obliviousness. It’s a nice touch that at one moment she’s more observant than the boys, spotting the fallen sapling, and the next getting so excited over the swans that she forgets to bail.
Speaking of, all I actually know about swans and the misusage thereof can be handily compressed into a limerick that was probably doing the rounds at Cambridge when Milton was a Lady, but I have a vague notion that they are not fair game under any circumstances, so Lawrie is clueless as well as heartless? Still, Peter’s moment of involuntarily half-expressed sentiment is touching.
Ain’t t’internet grand? The title of this chapter alludes to a folk poem describing a willow pattern plate, apparently. Here are some variants. Its relation to the chapter seems rather distant, if intriguing: pigeons there are certainly, the little vessel has just been abandoned, there are three (or maybe four) people involved in the main confrontation, though more are present. The point seems to be an ironic contrast between the twee and harmless world of the willow pattern plate and a dispute that escalates quickly and alarmingly.
Though the village’s distrust of the Thuggery is in the end amply justified, it’s notable that when they are first introduced, Forest seems to allow that the prejudice might be unfounded: ‘there had never been anything tangible against them in the absence of even one village mystery.’
Peter’s ‘dialect’ is very bogus here, isn’t it? with elements of Scots, Hiberno-English, Yorkshire, and the Mummerzet it settles into, with disastrous result, in Ready Made Family.
Forest means, I think, to make Maudie Culver so unsympathetic here that I can’t help but like her: hardy, ugly, unconventional spinster who looks after former Borstal boys and doesn’t take any crap from snooty Catholic-recusant gentry with Parliamentary pretensions or the lackadaisical squire who fancies himself as some kind of flying ace? In a different--maybe a better--sort of book she would have been the heroine.
I don’t know how likely the scene of Regina’s return is--perhaps people with some knowledge of falconry could comment? But Patrick’s enraptured approach to her is I think quite moving. And I have to confess I enjoy his hauteur in dealing with Maudie: her misinterpretation of his inability to look her in the eye is a fine touch. There is an irony amounting to hypocrisy in his rebuking her for her firearms safety practice, mind you.
Jukie, we might note, already stands apart from the rest of the Thuggery: their organisation as a pack around Maudie, and the less organised presentation of Patrick, Peter, and Lawrie, makes a superb tableau: back to the willow pattern plate?
Miss Culver’s softening when she recognises Patrick’s elevated social position foreshadows the rather later treatment of Lawrie by the police: for all it might in some ways be politically unsavoury to those of us of a leftish bent, the novel is remarkably unflinching about acknowledging privilege.
Peter’s tactless propensity further to antagonise an already hostile party is here to be observed in full flight, as it will be in Ready Made Family. Lawrie’s puzzled reaction to an adult’s aggression is another sort of privilege--it’s unlikely that any of the Thuggery managed to get to 13 without encountering a grown-up who had no interest in taking care of them. But perhaps it is just Lawrie's obliviousness: if she thinks that all adults have a pastoral capacity, she can't have been paying much attention during the bits of Traitor where she was conscious.
Finally, Patrick taking Regina on his bare fist. Ow! But indicative of his physical courage, ferocious love for the hawks and his faintly scary propensity for total absorption; albeit it’s usually self-absorption, here it’s self-forgetting.
I love the oscillations Lawrie goes through here: from cluelessly gawping around, to perspicaciously instructing Peter on how convincingly to fake having spotted something, and back to daftness in having been so absorbed in her playacting that she forgets to look for Jukie trailing them. And her odd strategy for courage in Nicola’s presence: babbling her fears so that Nicola will reply contemptuously--this being impossible however, with Peter.
Oh, the ‘perilous happiness’ of Patrick’s face, and the touching detail that Peter notices it: they seem close in this book, which doesn’t follow from the Gondal, but presumably some détente occurred over the canoe. This has been your regular &c.
Patrick’s incomprehension of the baffling family rules concerning privacy and property is enjoyable; as are the little hints that Peter (via Selby, as we discover) knows a good deal about pigeons, only the haughty Merrick Boy keeps interrupting.
And Jukie, oh mercy, mercy me. I love Lawrie’s observations of his good looks, her dismay that she appears to be beneath his notice, her unerring identification of his accent. I find a mixture of ‘true north-country’ (to me that means Northumberland, though I’m not sure what it means to Forest) ‘sham Yankee’ and Miss Culver a bit tricky to imagine, though. But he’s a superb portrait of cagey menace, rather vulnerable in himself, I think.
And: yes! This is a novel, let us not forget, about drug-running pigeons. The plot thickens.
The title of this chapter, as far as I can see, is from an 18th-century treatise on pigeon-keeping, the Columbarium, by John Moore. No doubt to be found in the Mariot Chase library, and a favourite of Aunt Eulalia’s.
Spies are still the first thing Peter thinks of, naturally, and Lawrie nearly lets on. Jukie has a good bit in common with Foley, one reflects.
Is Maudie’s Toryism the only explicit mention of a political affiliation in the series? I have never assumed that Anthony Merrick could be other than a Conservative MP, and there are various clues to Edwin’s political loyalties, but I can’t think offhand of another instance of overt political allegiance mentioned. There could be loads, of course, because I’m a dozy reader.
I’m equally delighted by Peter’s unexpected pigeon expertise and Jukie’s phrase for it, ‘comprehending the flutter culture like it’s ridiculous.’
Patrick’s confrontation with Jukie is a rather electrifying moment, prefiguring the last few chapters. Its notable that it’s a threat to Regina that brings Patrick to the pitch of his fury.
Lawrie’s terror and her subsequent reimagining of herself as courageous and resourceful is a perfectly Lawrie moment, and the contrast with her adventuresome acceptance of an excursion to the priest-hole. (I can’t help thinking about Patrick proposing to show the latter to claustrophobic Ginty. This has been your regular &c.)
Though it’s probably just a good old-fashioned retcon, explaining why Patrick has never mentioned this bolthole to any of the Marlows before, I cannot help being thoroughly delighted by the thought of a tiny Patrick obstinately convinced that the Penal Laws were still in force and the ‘brutal soldiery’ (lovely phrase) was going to burst through the door at any moment. His lack of fear (‘I had it worked out how madly heroic I was going to be’) echoes Lawrie a few minutes earlier, and, ironically, the Rupert of the Gondal.
Peter and Patrick’s awkward joshing about girls and the latter’s inchoate feeling that he’s somehow transgressed a sort of incest taboo by even thinking about Ginty is a nice little moment, I think, before we get back to drug running pigeons, which, as you might recall, are what this novel’s about.
Anyone with more experience of narcotics than I care to hazard what the drug is meant to be? I don’t see how drug-running pigeons could possibly be made to pay in any realistic sense, but am amply prepared, I find, to suspend my disbelief for the sheer daftness of it.
I enjoy the reference to Sayers, and it’s nice how very much of their detective work the Marlows and Patrick do out of novels. And if I recall correctly, Patrick’s idea of drug dealing as a form of blackmail has its origin in one of the Lord Peter novels (Murder Must Advertise?) Or perhaps that was a common argument of the mid-twentieth century?
Patrick’s judgement that the Thuggery are only ‘semi-Teds’ is interesting, I think: even though the plot is implausible in the extreme, Forest tends to avoid hyperbole by making her villains slightly amateurish--Foley being the model of the amateur spy--while no less dangerous.
The Jukie/Junkie intuition, which does, at 50 years distance, come across as rather hilarious (did Patrick just pick it up in the café, or does his reading list include William Burroughs* as well as Dorothy L. Sayers?) is also, we’ll discover later, wrong.
*OED lists US usages from 1923, but I think Burroughs’ novel of that title popularised the word in British usage.
That's it from me: have at it!
This novel has the most threatening dedication that I think I’ve ever read: ‘To Anthony C./who asked for it/(in more ways than one).' Lawks. I’d start running, now. Anyone know who Anthony C. was, and if he survived to tell the tale?
The Acknowledgements seem to express some dubiety over the authorship of ‘I saw a man this morning.’ I’ve never seen it attributed to anyone other than Shaw-Stewart. Tim Kendall has a nice little blogpost about him here. Written into his copy of A Shropshire Lad! Proposing non-penetrative sexytimes with Lady Diana Manners (in the classical tongues)! Adorable.
Forest’s note on the temporal flexibility of the series raises more questions than it answers, I think. Published in 1965, The Thuggery Affair is the first novel in which the setting has notably shifted from a vague late 40s/50s to (rather self-conscious) contemporaneity with publication. Though End of Term and Peter’s Room were published in 1959 and 1961 respectively, there’s nothing very much stopping readers seeing them as essentially continuous with the 1948 in which Falconer’s Lure is explicitly set. Thuggery, however, is fairly emphatically situated in 1964: it’s set at spring half term, and the Beatles’ ‘She Loves You’ (released August 1963) is playing on the radio. Forest’s note is dated September 1964.
This effect will be a substantial feature of the series from here on, and I’m interested to hear what people think of it. On the other hand, the setting of the series heretofore has not been all that rigorously accurate, something to which Forest (inadvertently?) draws attention in her note to Thuggery: ‘(who cares that clothes and sweets still had to be rationed in 1947?).’ Well, as several people pointed out in the discussion of Autumn Term, sweets aren’t rationed in that novel’s version of 1947 (Tim is first seen munching chocolate), and though there is mention of Kingscote’s navy uniform being a utility measure in the early novels, clothes rationing (as opposed to Marlow ‘poverty’) doesn’t seem to be a significant factor in the Marlows’ sartorial lives. Is there even one mention of coupons? In my experience of grandparently Second World War (and immediate postwar) reminiscence, coupons loom very, very large. So in a sense, the Marlows have always existed in an alternate universe. Slightly oddly, to my mind, Forest seems to see Peter’s continued attendance at Dartmouth as a major difficulty: I find that relatively easy to accept as a fudge, whereas (for example) Nicola and Lawrie’s birthdate shifting from 1935 to 1951 requires for me a larger suspension of disbelief. Peter will be relieved to know that his author thinks his expulsion from Dartmouth is ‘unlikely’, though. She seems more confident about the matter than he is.
This blog post about Thuggery is well worth a read, for its thoughts about language in the novel, and also for the priceless reflection that
Online reviews bear this out by talking constantly about how difficult the language of the “thuggery” is—to the extent that this particular quirk of the book has almost overshadowed the fact that the book is about drug-running pigeons.
For so it is, and any implausibilities in its portrayal of youth culture do rather pale beside the fact that this is a novel about drug-running pigeons.
It’s also the first and only book in which Nicola does not appear, and I wonder how that affects people’s reading of it? Anyway, here goes.
The economy of the opening is fantastic, I think, establishing the novel’s interest in language--‘Lower Fourth’s Word of the Month’--the change of cast occasioned by Nicola's and then Ginty’s absences, referring to the unstable friendship dynamics between the Lower Deck Marlows and That Merrick Boy. Even the canoe itself seems to allude by omission to the Gondal. How long were those Christmas holidays, though, if Peter and Patrick had time to build a canoe after the Gondal had collapsed?
Lawrie’s fantasy of tragedy and heroism is a comic gem, and it ironically foreshadows her less-than-heroic part in the drama to come.
Peter’s desire to shoot one of everything seems to be shading it close to a reference to Jael, but instead the conversation swerves into more hazardous territory yet, with Patrick’s mention of Jon.
The chapter swithers beautifully between tension and release, with all three characters sometimes more anxious, fearful or disappointed than they’re letting on. Lawrie seems better than heretofore at controlling emotion, though it’s interesting that she largely does it with fantasy or a determined obliviousness. It’s a nice touch that at one moment she’s more observant than the boys, spotting the fallen sapling, and the next getting so excited over the swans that she forgets to bail.
Speaking of, all I actually know about swans and the misusage thereof can be handily compressed into a limerick that was probably doing the rounds at Cambridge when Milton was a Lady, but I have a vague notion that they are not fair game under any circumstances, so Lawrie is clueless as well as heartless? Still, Peter’s moment of involuntarily half-expressed sentiment is touching.
Ain’t t’internet grand? The title of this chapter alludes to a folk poem describing a willow pattern plate, apparently. Here are some variants. Its relation to the chapter seems rather distant, if intriguing: pigeons there are certainly, the little vessel has just been abandoned, there are three (or maybe four) people involved in the main confrontation, though more are present. The point seems to be an ironic contrast between the twee and harmless world of the willow pattern plate and a dispute that escalates quickly and alarmingly.
Though the village’s distrust of the Thuggery is in the end amply justified, it’s notable that when they are first introduced, Forest seems to allow that the prejudice might be unfounded: ‘there had never been anything tangible against them in the absence of even one village mystery.’
Peter’s ‘dialect’ is very bogus here, isn’t it? with elements of Scots, Hiberno-English, Yorkshire, and the Mummerzet it settles into, with disastrous result, in Ready Made Family.
Forest means, I think, to make Maudie Culver so unsympathetic here that I can’t help but like her: hardy, ugly, unconventional spinster who looks after former Borstal boys and doesn’t take any crap from snooty Catholic-recusant gentry with Parliamentary pretensions or the lackadaisical squire who fancies himself as some kind of flying ace? In a different--maybe a better--sort of book she would have been the heroine.
I don’t know how likely the scene of Regina’s return is--perhaps people with some knowledge of falconry could comment? But Patrick’s enraptured approach to her is I think quite moving. And I have to confess I enjoy his hauteur in dealing with Maudie: her misinterpretation of his inability to look her in the eye is a fine touch. There is an irony amounting to hypocrisy in his rebuking her for her firearms safety practice, mind you.
Jukie, we might note, already stands apart from the rest of the Thuggery: their organisation as a pack around Maudie, and the less organised presentation of Patrick, Peter, and Lawrie, makes a superb tableau: back to the willow pattern plate?
Miss Culver’s softening when she recognises Patrick’s elevated social position foreshadows the rather later treatment of Lawrie by the police: for all it might in some ways be politically unsavoury to those of us of a leftish bent, the novel is remarkably unflinching about acknowledging privilege.
Peter’s tactless propensity further to antagonise an already hostile party is here to be observed in full flight, as it will be in Ready Made Family. Lawrie’s puzzled reaction to an adult’s aggression is another sort of privilege--it’s unlikely that any of the Thuggery managed to get to 13 without encountering a grown-up who had no interest in taking care of them. But perhaps it is just Lawrie's obliviousness: if she thinks that all adults have a pastoral capacity, she can't have been paying much attention during the bits of Traitor where she was conscious.
Finally, Patrick taking Regina on his bare fist. Ow! But indicative of his physical courage, ferocious love for the hawks and his faintly scary propensity for total absorption; albeit it’s usually self-absorption, here it’s self-forgetting.
I love the oscillations Lawrie goes through here: from cluelessly gawping around, to perspicaciously instructing Peter on how convincingly to fake having spotted something, and back to daftness in having been so absorbed in her playacting that she forgets to look for Jukie trailing them. And her odd strategy for courage in Nicola’s presence: babbling her fears so that Nicola will reply contemptuously--this being impossible however, with Peter.
Oh, the ‘perilous happiness’ of Patrick’s face, and the touching detail that Peter notices it: they seem close in this book, which doesn’t follow from the Gondal, but presumably some détente occurred over the canoe. This has been your regular &c.
Patrick’s incomprehension of the baffling family rules concerning privacy and property is enjoyable; as are the little hints that Peter (via Selby, as we discover) knows a good deal about pigeons, only the haughty Merrick Boy keeps interrupting.
And Jukie, oh mercy, mercy me. I love Lawrie’s observations of his good looks, her dismay that she appears to be beneath his notice, her unerring identification of his accent. I find a mixture of ‘true north-country’ (to me that means Northumberland, though I’m not sure what it means to Forest) ‘sham Yankee’ and Miss Culver a bit tricky to imagine, though. But he’s a superb portrait of cagey menace, rather vulnerable in himself, I think.
And: yes! This is a novel, let us not forget, about drug-running pigeons. The plot thickens.
The title of this chapter, as far as I can see, is from an 18th-century treatise on pigeon-keeping, the Columbarium, by John Moore. No doubt to be found in the Mariot Chase library, and a favourite of Aunt Eulalia’s.
Spies are still the first thing Peter thinks of, naturally, and Lawrie nearly lets on. Jukie has a good bit in common with Foley, one reflects.
Is Maudie’s Toryism the only explicit mention of a political affiliation in the series? I have never assumed that Anthony Merrick could be other than a Conservative MP, and there are various clues to Edwin’s political loyalties, but I can’t think offhand of another instance of overt political allegiance mentioned. There could be loads, of course, because I’m a dozy reader.
I’m equally delighted by Peter’s unexpected pigeon expertise and Jukie’s phrase for it, ‘comprehending the flutter culture like it’s ridiculous.’
Patrick’s confrontation with Jukie is a rather electrifying moment, prefiguring the last few chapters. Its notable that it’s a threat to Regina that brings Patrick to the pitch of his fury.
Lawrie’s terror and her subsequent reimagining of herself as courageous and resourceful is a perfectly Lawrie moment, and the contrast with her adventuresome acceptance of an excursion to the priest-hole. (I can’t help thinking about Patrick proposing to show the latter to claustrophobic Ginty. This has been your regular &c.)
Though it’s probably just a good old-fashioned retcon, explaining why Patrick has never mentioned this bolthole to any of the Marlows before, I cannot help being thoroughly delighted by the thought of a tiny Patrick obstinately convinced that the Penal Laws were still in force and the ‘brutal soldiery’ (lovely phrase) was going to burst through the door at any moment. His lack of fear (‘I had it worked out how madly heroic I was going to be’) echoes Lawrie a few minutes earlier, and, ironically, the Rupert of the Gondal.
Peter and Patrick’s awkward joshing about girls and the latter’s inchoate feeling that he’s somehow transgressed a sort of incest taboo by even thinking about Ginty is a nice little moment, I think, before we get back to drug running pigeons, which, as you might recall, are what this novel’s about.
Anyone with more experience of narcotics than I care to hazard what the drug is meant to be? I don’t see how drug-running pigeons could possibly be made to pay in any realistic sense, but am amply prepared, I find, to suspend my disbelief for the sheer daftness of it.
I enjoy the reference to Sayers, and it’s nice how very much of their detective work the Marlows and Patrick do out of novels. And if I recall correctly, Patrick’s idea of drug dealing as a form of blackmail has its origin in one of the Lord Peter novels (Murder Must Advertise?) Or perhaps that was a common argument of the mid-twentieth century?
Patrick’s judgement that the Thuggery are only ‘semi-Teds’ is interesting, I think: even though the plot is implausible in the extreme, Forest tends to avoid hyperbole by making her villains slightly amateurish--Foley being the model of the amateur spy--while no less dangerous.
The Jukie/Junkie intuition, which does, at 50 years distance, come across as rather hilarious (did Patrick just pick it up in the café, or does his reading list include William Burroughs* as well as Dorothy L. Sayers?) is also, we’ll discover later, wrong.
*OED lists US usages from 1923, but I think Burroughs’ novel of that title popularised the word in British usage.
That's it from me: have at it!
no subject
Date: 2014-10-24 07:29 am (UTC)It felt completely implausible to me that the conversation about wanting to bag one of everything was not terminated by an icy 'one falcon?' Stiff silence and uncomfortable journey home would have ensued, followed by Patrick kicking the sheets about it, and Peter spending half term on his own. Nicola's mind would have gone there instantly and she would gave sat in miserable silence going hot and cold at the thought.
Lawrie taking the Nicola role
Date: 2014-10-24 12:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-11-03 01:10 am (UTC)(no subject)
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2014-11-03 01:13 am (UTC) - ExpandDrug-running pigeons
Date: 2014-10-24 10:36 am (UTC)I suspect the drug is cocaine, both on the basis of price and because of Dorothy Sayers (whose cocaine plot is if anything less plausible). The effects don't fit LSD, and that wasn't very popular with Teds anyway. Amphetamines were still being marketed as slimming aids so hardly worth smuggling.
Newpigeonguy on Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1VD53MHqUw shows a homing pigeon can carry 40g easily, and Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_pigeon reckons 75g with training, but that would include the harness. A full disposable lighter like that in the video weighs about 15g, so lets guess 25g of leather, which would leave a trained bird carrying about 50g of drug.
Frank says the current street price for cocaine is £42 a gramme - http://www.talktofrank.com/faq/how-much-does-cocaine-cost, I don't know about 1964 prices, but if anything they would have been more allowing for inflation, and remember the pure product is going to be adulterated some (though not as much, I suspect as it is these days), lets say half and half.
So in theory a pigeon could carry 50g = 100g of street drug, which makes £4200. A small flock of pigeons could definitely be worth the trouble...
Of course Forest, like Sayers, madly overestimates the efficiency of the police and the coastguard, so it would probably have been easier to have the stuff over in a suitcase.
no subject
Date: 2014-10-24 10:48 am (UTC)Re: Drug-running pigeons
Date: 2014-10-25 12:05 pm (UTC)Sayers plot in MMA is totally implausible, but I justify it by assuming that everyone is high during the Harlequin bits, even if in Peter's case it is only cocktails and adrenaline.
Re: Drug-running pigeons
From:Re: Drug-running pigeons
From:Re: Drug-running pigeons
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From:Re: Drug-running pigeons
From:Re: Drug-running pigeons and the market
From:no subject
Date: 2014-10-24 09:01 pm (UTC)It's daftness piled on daftness. First impossible thing; Regina, who has been living wild all winter, and who has just eaten her fill of a freshly caught pigeon jumps onto Patrick's fist. That really, really wouldn't happen.
And all those boys just to look after pigeons? Are they that labour intensive? Maudie could run a yard of racing horses with that lot. Whenever I've come across pigeons in fiction they're looked after by one person maximum, usually after a day's work.
And Patrick in a coffee shop with teds and chicks?
That's not not even starting on the daftness of drug-smuggling pigeons and all the made up language.....
no subject
Date: 2014-10-25 09:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-10-25 10:02 am (UTC)But what I love TTA for is the character bits, which are as incisive as anything AF ever did. And Lawrie is fabulously entertaining and so characteristically Lawrie all the way through.
I like the suggestion that normally Nicola is brave, so Lawrie does't have to be. That makes a lot of sense of their personal dynamic. Perhaps, in reverse, Lawrie is emotional so Nick does't have to be?
Occasional Hope (away from home)
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2014-10-28 08:23 pm (UTC)(Paula.)
no subject
Date: 2014-10-25 06:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-10-25 09:23 am (UTC)(no subject)
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From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2014-10-29 06:20 am (UTC) - Expandno subject
Date: 2014-10-25 11:23 am (UTC)If you look at the election map of the West Country in 1950, Anthony Merrick has to be a Tory, but the idea of his party being desperate for someone local seems implausible to me, unless his fictional constituency is some sort of formally Liberal stronghold.
And yes, the sheer number of the Thuggery seems implausible unless Maudie is getting subsidised for some of them? Maybe there was a ex Borstal boy fostering scheme or summat :-)
no subject
Date: 2014-10-25 06:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-10-25 12:48 pm (UTC)TTA opens on the last Saturday before Lawrie, at least, returns to school on the following Monday. Assuming a week, that's given Peter and Patrick a chunk of time to work on the canoe during half-term itself. Are Peter's Dartmouth holidays longer overall than Kingscote's? He arrives home before his sisters; he might also have gone back after they did?
TTA, for me, is the one that shows a divide between the holiday books, harking back, to the holiday adventure of TMatT, not least through getting rid of some of the familly, Nicola and Ginty in TTA. The 'holiday adventure' is also a feature of RAH, whereas FL, PR and RMF are all more domestic, for want of finding a better word, holidays. Not that adventurous things don't happen in the latter, but they aren't driving the plot in the same way as in the former group. I think because of that I read them with a different approach, and accept drug-smuggling pigeons, and not-quite-Ted gangs, and children not telling adults what's going on, and the made-up language. ("If it wasn't for those darn kids...")
I'm wondering if Lawrie being shocked by Miss Culver's attitude, is less to do with not paying attention in TMatT and more because it's still her default state, and even more so when confronted by an adult of her own class? There's also the fact that her injuries in TMatT might have shocked some of the immediate experience of both Foley and the people on the bus who don't come to her rescue. So it takes Lawrie time to adjust her accustomed stance, especially since she tends to freeze (as she does when confronted with Jukie's threatening behaviour, such as his threats to Regina) at danger rather than rush to the rescue, despite her supremely heroic imagined adventures. Lawrie's also not following Jukie's language for the most part either, in these chapters, another alienating experience for her - it's not just her daydreams that are leaving her behind the other two.
Lawrie thoughts in chapter 1 about how the holidays might play out without Nicola being there remind me of the bit in FL where tiny Nicola used to run after small Peter and Patrick, crying, "Wait for me!" and then stomping off proud and cross, when they didn't. And Lawrie's choosing whether to act like Nicola did (pretending not to mind about spending the holiday on her own) or else, again acting like Nicola did before her realisation that she may have butted in, unwanted, on Tim and Lawrie (also later with Ginty and Patrick in RMF, I think), tagging along, but in this case, pretending that she doesn't know they don't want her.
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Date: 2014-10-25 04:36 pm (UTC)The term at Kingscote finishes fairly soon before Christmas, unlike a lot of state schools who have a week before xmas and a week after. Kingscote may well have had 3 weeks, so there would have been about a week left after Gondal as it was 2 days after 12th Night. So a week would have been long enough to build it, I should think. (Too late for PR discussion, but I have always wondered about the timing of the lambing. Does it really happen that early in Dorset?)
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From:half term
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2014-10-26 08:49 am (UTC) - ExpandRe: half term
From:no subject
Date: 2014-10-25 05:23 pm (UTC)Lawrie is a fabulous comic character. I completely identify with her combination of cowardice and self-deluding heroic fantasy - I spin these little stories for myself too . The Boating Tragedy In Hoggart's Lock is not only funny but a very clever way to info dump for the reader. I love Mrs Marlow, mother of eight "I am prostrated with grief. Lawrie was my favourite child..."
I also think this is an amazingly ambitious book, not just in terms of the language, but in taking on these themes of social change head-on. We've gone from Westbridge as a fairly standard rural children's book setting (not that there is anything standard about the way it is described in End of Term and Peter's Room, which is so wonderfully evocative, but I mean in terms of the social hierarchies) and suddenly we have a whole lot of urban 1960s youth appearing and Forest really wants to engage with them, their outlook, values, language, social dynamics...Middle aged, female children's writers always seem to get a kicking when they try to step outside class (I'm thinking Eve Garnett, accused of being "patronising", unfairly I think) but I think Forest deserves all credit for it.
I also enjoy that peculiar atmosphere of daftness suddenly verging into real violence that she creates throughout the book. The first example being Maudie threatening Patrick over a dead pigeon and suddenly it seems like she really might shoot him...and then it's all matiness when she finds out he's a Merrick. I don't like Maudie at all, I have to say (though I didn't notice until this reading that Forest chose to make her so freakily ugly - a shame that): the extremely right wing rural type who is quite prepared to shoot somebody until she finds out they are posh - no, not endearing.
I do love the interactions between Peter, Patrick and Lawrie in this book - I think the fact that neither Peter nor Lawrie are particularly deferential to Patrick (as Nicola and Ginty are) makes his quirks of egotism or pomposity much more bearable. And he actually teases Lawrie a bit. While Peter takes the piss out of him. It all seems more even somehow.
It may all be terribly unlikely, as jackmerlin says, but then, I think a lot of the books in the series are unlikely. Lots of very unlikely things happen, but somehow Forest makes the characters and the setting so real that it doesn't matter.
Oh yes, and when I read "Hornblower and the Antrobus" I could help feeling that Forest must have got her opening - travelling through a lock - from there. I can't say why exactly, but they seemed to have something in common, though it's hard to pin it down concretely, except they book mention pollarded willows...
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Date: 2014-10-26 12:50 am (UTC)I think this is very true. Male writers being people -- it's ok for them to be experimental and "shed light" etc. Women writers ought to "write what you know" and so on.
This is my first read of TTA, so my judgement isn't in as to whether or not AF succeeds, but all praise to her for pushing the envelope. My mother (film editor) has a good phrase for films that try something but don't quite it pull it off: interesting failure. In her opinion many of these interesting failures have far more merit than "good" films.
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From:The intersection of class and gender in children's lit (slightly OT)
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From:maudie culver/empire loyalism
Date: 2014-10-25 05:30 pm (UTC)Re: maudie culver/empire loyalism
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From:What would you do?
Date: 2014-10-26 09:29 am (UTC)You'd TELL ROWAN and ask her to drive you to Colebridge police station.
She's an adult, they all trust her, she's sensible, competent etc. won't worry their mother, won't fuss like Ann might, and they all like her. AF ought to have written her out for the day to make it believable that they don't.
Re: What would you do?
Date: 2014-10-26 10:18 am (UTC)(Scrambling rather desperately) she did think they were all prize plonkers at the end of Peter's Room though, didn't she, and this is yet another incident involving Peter waving a gun around (albeit not really his fault) so maybe they have lumped her in with the authoritarian grown ups and instinctively feel she will a) scoff b) take over and c) ban them from little trips with rifles forever more?
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From:Temporal explanation
Date: 2014-10-27 05:16 am (UTC)Pip
Matters sporting, if not military
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From:God, this novel's daft, isn't it?
Date: 2014-10-27 01:11 pm (UTC)It does have some of the best moments in Forest, though
Re: God, this novel's daft, isn't it?
Date: 2014-10-27 11:47 pm (UTC)I do think AF did too much research into pigeons and not enough into drugs. (I take on board that she couldn't just go into Hampstead library and ask what cocaine tastes like; but the sentence that 'Lawrie was never able to describe' what it was like fools no one.) How can she POSSIBLY have thought drugs would be smuggled from overseas in the kind of quantity that would attach to a pigeon's leg? I don't mind a book having a silly plot, but there has to be a certain internal consistency, and this one doesn't really work in its mixture of extremely subtle, convincing dialogue and completely bonkers attempts at action.
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From:Re: God, this novel's daft, isn't it? School versus Home stories
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From:Jukie
Date: 2014-10-28 01:37 pm (UTC)I enjoy the scene in the hawk house: his use of language (Regina referred to as Patrick's "tame vulture"), the way he's unexpectedly good-tempered about Peter "comprehending the flutter business like it's ridiculous", his sense of honour about his "parole". Patrick and Peter are trying to make fools of him, and there's definitely a sense of young males trying to get one up on each other - and the real point scored by them is actually a matter of physical prowess - or lack of it - Jukie dropping the bird. And then that sudden threat of violence, between both Jukie and in Patrick.
Re: Jukie
Date: 2014-10-28 02:23 pm (UTC)And I really enjoy the attempts at oneupmanship in the hawkhouse, which make all three of them look faintly ridiculous in a very plausible adolescent way, but also do have a genuine chill of menace.
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Date: 2014-11-05 10:52 am (UTC)Trying to remember in which foreword Forest says that she's left out boring references to rationing. There were always a few sweets, because the adults gave the children their sweets coupons - and you only ate sweets once a day, usually after the main meal of the day
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Date: 2014-11-05 06:44 pm (UTC)Hence the chocolate-coated almonds, or whatever they were, in Autumn Term that were shared round "before we have to give them in" - the sweets would have been kept in a tin (one per child) and a meagre ration doled out at an appropriate point during the day. Not to be allowed sweets for a week was a regular punishment at my boarding-school, although they were only doled out in the junior forms - older girls were assumed to be of an age to be reasonable about eating them, or did without.
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From:Canoes and collar-bones
Date: 2014-11-08 05:57 pm (UTC)Watsonian and Doylist explanations both welcome!
Thuggery
Date: 2014-12-21 01:36 am (UTC)