catholic question?

[antfan.livejournal.com]

So good to find this site, full of other people who share a passions for the Marlows    Fascinating that people have such very different responses. Never occurred to me that you could love the books but not Nicola, or that anyone actually liked Patrick Merrick….   So I’d like to ask opinions about something I find puzzling. All the obits/biogs say Antonia Forest was such a strong catholic, and yet why (to my mind) are her noncatholic/nonreligious characters so much more appealing? And her catholic characters so strongly unappealing. Mme Orly is a nightmare –fun to read about, but a nightmare – and then there’s Patrick… I suppose he is the major example. To me he always seems both arrogant and a prig, and his religious certainties always seemed a big part of this. He is just way too certain of himself and his beliefs.   Some examples: In conversation with Rowan, he states that of course he never has any difficulties at all in believing in God (End of Term). Nicola, following a conversation with him, reflects that she hopes her ancestors were genuine believers in Protestantism, as anything else would seem so inferior to the Merricks, with their acceptance of possible martyrdom. (interesting: she seems to detect in his religion a kind of dynastic superiority rather than a personal spirituality!) In the same conversation Patrick makes clear that he sees the whole of English history through a Catholic prism – completely writing off the Tudors and the Restoration, and stating that of course his family supported Charles not ‘Orrible Oliver during the Civil War. (And more fool them, as Oliver Cromwell’s regime was notable for its toleration towards Catholics – far more so than after the Restoration.) Patrick’s certainties (religious, social, intellectual) are not even much shaken up by his long talk with Jukie (Thuggery Affair) although he does at least find Jukie’s DIY theology baffling, rather than amusing (as we are told would usually be the case). Is such cast-iron certainty/superiority really an attractive feature in someone who is only fifteen/sixteen? Wouldn’t you want to shoot him for such smugness!   Most tellingly, I can’t think of any notable example of kindness or generosity by Patrick, religiously inspired or not. Quite the opposite, in the whole betrayal of Nicola for Ginty -which makes it all the more annoying she is just delighted to get him back!)   (Oops – I suppose Patrick’s willingness to help Jukie – at some personal risk – is an example here. However, Jukie dies and the incident seems to have no lasting effect upon Patrick at all.)   ALSO I can’t help noticing that AF herself chooses for her main characters people who are both open-minded and reflective and generally of no strong religious conviction at all. (Does this mean she likes them best?  Or she thinks they are more appealing to readers?  )In End of Term, Nicola is both thoughtful and intrigued by the different religious beliefs she encounters, almost sociologically observant, but very far from expressing any particular belief herself. This makes Nicola a lot more appealing in my eyes…she is also generally a kinder person than Patrick, and far more reflective about herself and her own behaviour. For that matter, Lawrie (who states that she thought Christianity was some sort of mythology, like the Olympians, and even tries to make bargains with God) is a lot more appealing than Ann (full of conventional religious piety).     Then there’s Nicholas and Will (Player’s Boy/Rebels). AF’s Will is surely one of her most appealing characters: wise, ironic, shrewd, detached…and he has no interest in supporting the Old Religion. Furthermore, he believes Nicholas is right to betray the Essex plotters regardless of the fact that some of them are hoping to restore the Catholic faith. (He and Nicholas’s scruples and regrets about this are to do with personal loyalties/friendships, not religion.)   So what’s going on here? Am I misreading the books totally? So many things I like about AF’s writing – her subversiveness (especially in the school setting), her openness to paradox and alternative points of view, and her choice of open-minded, searching, pragmatic characters for her main narrative viewpoints – seem at odds with what I read on the AF web-sites – that AF was a strong catholic herself.   (And monarchist for that matter.) Of course, I have to say it is decades since I read Attic Term – would that make things clearer? Do I simply not understand what AF was trying to do? Comments please! Tags: nicola, patrick, religion

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

It's funny about Ann. When she is such a good Mary in End of Term, for example, presumably because the story means a lot to her (because everybody who knows her is rather surprised about it) you get the feeling that as a person and a believer she is to be taken seriously, and does have redeeming features. Obviously Nicola doesn't like her, but that seems to be a basic personality clash. However, in Run Away Home she really does seem to have become a caricature - so unpleasantly prissy and narrow-minded. I rather preferred the more nuanced version, I have to say.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't feel that Ann is prissy and narrow minded exactly - just very into PC. She holds firm beliefs and, depending upon your point of view, might be seen as strong and capable with definite leadership qualities. Her character would actually need very little tweaking to make her a typical popular character from other school stories written about the same time. It must be very tough being born into a family who are all so very different from her and tough too to hold on to beliefs and behaviours that are seen as laughable and/or boring. I don't like Ann particularly but I find her a sympathetic character at times and I have a suspicion that if I found myself slipping through a time warp and ending up at Trennels (to pick up something nzraya sort of suggests) in the school holidays it would be Ann I would sidle up to first while I plucked up the courage to speak to Rowan. (Who would probably be unpleasantly sarcastic.)

[forester48.livejournal.com]

Forgot to log in. The above was from me.

[legionseagle.livejournal.com]

Generally speaking, I think Ann's response on spiritual issues is rather different to her response on moral/ethical issues. I mean, there's Nicola looking at her with surprise as she appears "gay and recollected" on returning from church. Her response to Edward Oeschsli, however, is very much a "render unto Caesar" approach (and while it's perfectly valid that the rest of the Marlows utterly disregard the human aspect when it manifests in the person of Judity, Ann disregards Edward and Felix's human aspect also).

Where Ann comes over as thoroughly unsympathetic is the reason why she refuses to lend her bicycle to Nicola, though. That one is narrow-minded (if I'd been Ann, I'd have never lent my bicycle to another family member for different reasons, but the reason given is obnoxious). Basically she's putting obstacles in the way of Nicola's spiritual journey because she's being sectarian about things.

[rosathome.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think the spiritual vs moral is an important and helpful distinction with Ann. Maybe, like Patrick, she's still working out how to live out her faith in ways that don't make her quite so priggish. She's a teenager too, remember. And she's likely to overcompensate for her family's total lack of concern for these matters. But it doesn't mean it's not real or well-motivated.