Let's talk about Tim

[antfan.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's time to talk about Tim Keith.  Don't think there have been previous threads about her.  

I was recently struck by a bit in the otherwise not especially informative Marlows and their Maker about the creation of Tim.  Apparently AF was writing Autumn Term without her, and her friend (GB Stern) said why shouldn't the twins make use of being the head girls sisters, and how she had always wanted to read a school story with a headmistress's niece who did take full advantage - and hey, presto, the character was born.  AF completely rewrote the book.  And AF commented that she never really felt that Tim was one of "her" characters as a result.

Reading Autumn Term and End of Term, especially as a child, I never liked Tim.  She could be so intensely, bitingly hateful to people (mainly Nicola).   But rereading the early Marlow stories recently as an adult - Falconer's Lure and Marlows and the Traitor - I have been rather off put by the feel of the books, the undiluted establishment-y feel of the naval/gentry Marlows, and I wonder if what I am missing is Tim's presence, which adds that subversive voice?  Without her, Autumn Term would be a very different book, and a lot duller.  Then again, I prefer Cricket Term of the school stories, where Tim has moved somewhat to the sidelines - been tamed, almost.  I'm not sure AF knows quite what to do with her, from that point.  Will she become head girl?  What will happen to her?

Any Tim haters/fans out there?  What do you think?

Comments

[rosathome.livejournal.com]

I agree, I think. I don't like her at all, but she makes the books much more interesting.

[helenprev.livejournal.com]

I do sort of like her, I think. She is certainly, to me anyway, a very real character - I knew people like her at school.

I particularly like reading about when Tim and Miranda are thrown together at half term in The Attic Term, to sort out the form's 'Christmas Offering'. I love the way the two of them work together and we can see their personalities almost - locking - I think is the right word, as they complement one another.

I possibly have more to say but I am being talked at by a three year old and my brain has once more turned to mush ;-)

[nineveh-uk.livejournal.com]

I love Tim as a character. She's rather frightening as a person, though at least one would know it and be able to avoid her. And I think that Nicola jolly well needs a Tim Keith in her life, a peer whose opinion Nicola can't dismiss as just because she doesn't like it and Tim doesn't like her. Tim's the necessary balance who allows the Marlowes to be good at everything - as the school heroine must be - in books that are a lot more complicated than the usual sort in which it is plausible for the heroine to be good/the best at everything. Her acknowledgment that Lawrie really can act so very well and that Nicola can sing is significant in allowing the reader to accept this, too. In this sense she actually backs up the author, where we might not take a friend's partial judgement, or even the author's if inadequately conveyed. The Marlowe twins at school _need_ Tim, she knows it and (to my mind, though I haven't re-read in a while) it is this that Nicola finds discomfiting. After Autumn Term, Tim certainly does not need her; for Tim Nicola is useful, but not necessary.

[antfan.livejournal.com]

Though in Cricket Term, Tim wants to be best friends again, and Nick says "Just poss" - taking her as she found her. So maybe it's Nicola that's moved on?

Do you think Tim will end up as a theatre director?

[ankaret.livejournal.com]

I didn't read that as Tim actually expressing an interest in being best friends with Nicola - if so, she never follows it up, though they do seem to be quite happy to be alone in each others' company, cf the conversation about costuming for the Play - so much as teasing Nicola to see whether she could get a rise out of her, which, as it happened, she couldn't.

[antfan.livejournal.com]

though Tim has moved away from Lawrie in Cricket Term - no more ostentatious references to Best Friend, or support for her Caliban campaign. I thought maybe she was trying to arrange a realignment.

I've always thought it might have been interesting if Tim or Miranda had met up with Patrick! Patrick always seems to dominate Nicola rather easily - it would have been interesting to see what he made of Miranda/Tim or they of him! I'd much rather see him married off to Miranda than Nicola - lots of juicy Jewish/Catholic complications for one thing! (I've never ventured into fanfic so far - but has anyone ever written about that scenario?)

[ankaret.livejournal.com]

That's interesting about her lack of support for the Caliban campaign; I read it as a shrewd knowledge of realpolitik on Tim's part, in that, as Headmistress's Niece, she knows Lawrie has no chance of getting the part from Gerry Hume, and is perhaps slightly irritated that Lawrie refuses to know too.

But I don't see any evidence of a larger-scale withdrawal from Lawrie (though I would of course be fascinated if anyone could provide examples!) - come The Attic Term, she and Miranda are still described as being Lawrie and Nicola's friends rather than particularly friends of each other, for example.

I'm afraid I wouldn't know about Miranda / Patrick or Tim / Patrick fanfic. Sorry!

[ex-lizzzar998.livejournal.com]

I never liked Tim that much - although maybe I can see her eventually becoming a theatre director. I always thought that ultimately Nicola was too strong a character for her - although it certainly is implied that a good part of her friendship with Lawrie is related to common theatrical interests, and not just greater ability to dominate a less strong personality.

[ankaret.livejournal.com]

In what way do you think Lawrie has a less strong personality than Nicola? As Nicola herself says to Karen, 'Honestly, you're like Lawrie [...] You're a budge-notter... not soft a bit...' (Sorry, am quoting from memory as book is downstairs, so I may not have it entirely correct, but the gist is there)

She certainly acts a lot younger than Nicola, particularly in the earlier books (though she's still flapping and exclaiming over having to carry part of the picnic down a foggy beach, and irritating Giles, by Run Away Home) and is content to let Nicola do the question-asking in Autumn Term, but I always see that as yet more of Lawrie's youngest-kid coping strategy of behaving as if she expects special treatment on the off-chance that this will make the special treatment show up.

[ex-lizzzar998.livejournal.com]

I think AF suggests that Lawrie's dramatizing gives her a less strong centre of self than the Traditions of the Service/ Marlow stiff upper lip Nicola. Tim appears pretty fixed in her opinions too - and she directs, not acts. However, I didn't mean to suggest that Lawrie isn't good at getting what she wants - and I think AF implies that she has the determination to eventually make it as an actress.

[smellingbottle.livejournal.com]

Coming in very late on this. I agree re Tim as necessary Nicola counter-balance, and I think it's one of AF's strengths that she gives us a complex, (at least arguably) attractive character who often takes up a fairly oppositional stance to the unquestioned heroine of the novels - Headmistress's Niece vs Don't Attract Attention Because a Marlow is Headgirl; happy to equivocate vs Nicola's sticklerish honesty (the bit where she tells Crommie she's read Heart of Midlothian or Redgauntlet always boggles my mind slightly); debunking vs hero-worshipping; deliberately and happily underachieving vs the twins' naive desire to excel. Though she's cruel at times, and clearly specialises in the kinds of wounding remarks which niggle for years, I like her as a much more equivocal, cynical, independent-minded, non-joining alternative to Nicola's primary-coloured Traditions of the Service attitudes.

[antfan.livejournal.com]

Yes. And it strikes me quite a bit of this - certainly the last sentence - also describes Jan Scott. In fact Jan Scott is quite a lot like Tim - without the nastier elements. Clearly AF has a lot of sympathy for loners as well as joiners - Patrick too of course. It would be difficult, though, to write an effective school story peopled only by people who like to stand on the side-lines.

[nineveh-uk.livejournal.com]

the bit where she tells Crommie she's read Heart of Midlothian or Redgauntlet always boggles my mind slightly

Likewise. I have a feeling that even at the Chalet School this, unless done in exactly the right circumstances, might be considered sliding from schoolgirl-sense-of-honour into priggishness-consciously-demonstrating-ones-virtue. I preferred Swallows and Amazons' Uncle Jim setting Nancy and Peggy to memorise Casabiana, which he knows they've just done at school.

[debodacious.livejournal.com]

Like Nicola I am never actually sure how much I like Tim - which is refreshing in a genre where most people are either goodies or baddies. So she does dishonourable things and presumes on her status as Niece of Headmistress, but isn't forced to reform or repent which would be the case at, say, the Chalet School. And like Lawrie, I am shocked when Rowan dismisses Tim as an infant rabbit, because she might not be good at games but she is still "in things" at school, and therefore is a person who matters.

Equally I am always a little ambivalent about Miranda. I can never quite forgive her for that Kitchen and Jumble.

[(Anonymous)]

totally agree with that - made me laugh. The kitchen and jumble is something i can never forgive either.

Tim!

[tabouli.livejournal.com]

Tim is by far my favorite Forest character. I'm often faintly miffed that no-one else seems to like her much, especially when those same Tim-haters say they don't like her because she's nasty and then profess to like the scornful, superior Miranda, who is every bit as nasty and far less entertaining.

Why is this? Is it because Tim has regular run-ins with Nicola and (gasp!) sides with Lawrie (who is likewise more entertaining by far than Nicola, IMO), whereas Miranda turns out to be her Best Friend and True? Is it because Tim is unscrupulous and irreverent, whereas Miranda is honourable and staunch?

I'd say more, but I'm getting married tomorrow, and am a trifle busy...

Re: Tim!

[(Anonymous)]

Tim can be pretty vicious at times. "On the rare occassions she lost her temper she surprised herself unpleasantly by the things she found to say". (Or something along those lines, in Autumn Term, where she is also compared to Lois Sanger.) There didn't really seem any reason for her to be quite so nasty to Nicola as she was in End of Term - saying she could hit her she was so stupid. I think it's the intensity of this dislike, and the way she doesn't temper it, that make her hard to like sometimes. However, her irreverence is wonderful, and I think really needed in the early books, before the Marlows themselves loosen up a bit.

Have a wonderful, wonderful day tomorrow! How nice of you to take time to contribute!

Re: Tim!

[bluebellbicycle.livejournal.com]

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Tim is probably my favourite character in the series, I love every cleverly-drawn bit of her, and I was always disappointed that she fades through the series, or doesn't appear in the home books.

Re: Tim!

[whinny-muir.livejournal.com]

Me too. I'm a Tim fan. I get tired of the goody~two~shoes Marlows. Tim adds that touch of spice & she is a far more rounded & complicated character because of it. And who is nice all the time? Nick certainly has her moments of being less than charming.

[colne-dsr.livejournal.com]

Not head girl, I'm sure. Certainly not if Miss Keith's still headmistress. Miss Keith goes for steady, reliable, consistent all-round academic types to be head girl. Eg. Val Longstreet & Karen Marlow. Tim doesn't work at subjects she doesn't like, and bumps along towards the bottom of the class and doesn't care. She doesn't have the steadiness, and conscientiousness towards those people she doesn't get on with. And I don't think Miss Keith would appoint her as head unless she was so much the obvious candidate that she couldn't be accused of favouritism.

Miranda will get it. Good public image; father paying for the swimming pool; telling Miss Keith about the Changear drugs suspicion will count perhaps more than it should in Miss Keith's mind; always near the top of the class. Well, Miranda's a political type who will want the job; Tim really would not. Being form prefect to boss around the people she knows is all very well; head girl would involve far too much work.

[(Anonymous)]

>>In what way do you think Lawrie has a less strong personality than Nicola?

For my part, I think that Lawrie in day to day life probably just goes along with what Tim wants to do, because she doesn't much mind. It's only in certain areas, like acting or being scared of things, that she digs her heels in; most of the time, I imagine Tim sets the pace. So if she says "eh, let's skip this and go for a walk," Laurie would probably just go, whereas Nicola would always have some agenda of her own - practising, animals, etc etc.

Promethea