Patrick

[blonde222.livejournal.com]

I was rereading the Attic Term (courtesy of frankie_ecap, thank you PH) and came across a passage which has always confused me.

I'm talking about the first conversation we witness between Patrick and Claudie.  In which, she asks him if he is sleeping with his girlfriend, and he vociferously denies having any desire to, on the grounds he is "terribly backward". At which point she offers to initiate him... and he says: "Well, since you ask, because I think it should only be with someone you - care for, or - okay - if it's paid for."

Firstly would anyone like to comment on this conversation in general - for example, is he saying he doesn't think of Ginty in that way (bad luck, Ginja) or is it he just doesn't want to talk about it with Claudie? And also, what's with the "paid for" comment? He can't possibly be saying that the only alternatives are marriage or prostitution???

Comments

[slemslempike.livejournal.com]

1) Both - doesn't want to have sex with Ginty (probably anyone, based on his beliefs), and doesn't want to discuss it with Claudie. He's probably found at school that his particular scruples in this situation are considered at least faintly ridiculous, and doesn't feel the need to have that repeated by Claudie.

2) Yes, I think it is. I find it a little incongruous, but I think it's the "not too bothered" bit about Claudie's relations that bothers him, so he's saying that either sex should take place in a (presumeably) loving and codified relationship, or it should be nothing to both people. Though why, if he can see prostitution as justified, he can't countenance casual sex, I don't know. I suspect saying it's a way of trying to appear less naive then he feels.

[yiskah.livejournal.com]

Maybe because prostitution is a transaction, and therefore codified and not casual? That's the best I can come up with; I always found that line rather odd (though interesting).

[owl]

I always thought that the 'if it's paid for' bit was Patrick trying to make himself out less innocent than he is to Claudie.

[oursin.livejournal.com]

I can remember this view being voiced by one or two men more or less my contemporaries in my student days, some few years prior to the publication of The Attic Term. (but it's too late in the evening for me to do a fully-fledged riff on the relationship between religion and toleration of prostitution as an unfortunate necessity, as manifested in different national policies in C19th Europe and well into C20th in some countries.)

[carmine-rose.livejournal.com]

I think by saying that, he's articulating what he already knows - that he doesn't love Ginty (because he's saving himself for Nicola, obviously :)). And also, he doesn't want to discuss it with Claudie because he's wary of being mocked - I see his comment about being "backward" as that type of self-deprecating thing you do to get in with the criticism before the other person says it.

[anstruther.livejournal.com]

I think:

1. The flat denial of wanting to sleep with Ginty is down to the fact he doesn't want to discuss it with Claudie - I've always interpreted it as a kneejerk reaction coming out of his combined embarrassment and rage at Claudie's question.

2. He's not saying he doesn't care for Ginty (or that she isn't worth the cash!). I read that statement as a direct response to Claudie asking why he won't sleep with her. The passage in full reads:

'But at least you wish it, no?'
'No.'
'With another, then? Non?' Winding his hair around her forefinger again, she said, "Mais, comme, vous êtes bébé!'
'I know. Like you're always saying, I'm just too terribly backward,' he said, jerking his head free, expecting agreement.

But she chose to say nothing: instead she sat and looked at him, her eyes alert, appraising. Patrick looked back at her: until he said at last, composedly, 'No, thank you, Claudie, very much for asking.'
She said, perfectly good-humoured, 'Eh bien, pourquoi pas?'
'Oh brother! Well, since you ask, because I think it should only be with someone you - care for, or - okay - if it's paid for.'

3. On my interpretation of 1. and 2., he doesn't in fact make any (honest) statement about whether he wants to sleep with Ginty or not.

4. He really does think sex should only be with someone you love but is honest enough to acknowledge the reality of sex as a commercial transaction. But I've always suspected Claudie managed to overcome the "casual sex is a mortal sin" objection within a couple of months of the end of Attic Term. He was only sixteen at the time...

[blonde222.livejournal.com]

re your second point of 4) I think I agree with you there...maybe even sooner, which might explain why, by the end of Runaway Home, he has more or less completely forgotten all about Ginty... However, I didn't take his comment about prostitution to be an acknowledgement of reality: he does seems to be saying it's more OK than having casual sex with a friend/acquaintance... which COULD be some complex moral principled stand I suppose (all or nothing). But then if we are right and Claudie DOES get her wicked way with him then most uncharacteristically for Patrick, his moral stand didn't last very long...

[anstruther.livejournal.com]

D'you know, I can almost imagine a conversation taking place a couple of years before Attic Term between Patrick and his parents where Mr. Merrick says earnestly that sex should only be with people you love/are married to and Mrs. Merrick adds a "unless of course you're paying for it" rider. It would seem rather in keeping with the "thank goodness I needn't avoid Fridays for dinner parties any more" attitude!

And unless Patrick was a remarkably pretty sixteen year old (a very Paris to Ginty's Helen), I've also always been a bit surprised that Claudie chooses to make a play for him rather than for Mr. Merrick. Ok, Mr. Merrick is married, but in terms of bad manners, surely seducing your hosts' teenage son is as bad as making a move on the father? Always supposing she didn't in fact make a play for both...?!

Sorry - returning to the topic, I agree that if you analyse the sentence he appears to be saying sex is acceptable if paid for but I'm going to give my ickle idealistic Patrick the benefit of the doubt and plump for him making a bit of a muddle of compensating mid-sentence for having expressed a statement he knows Claudie will think naive. (he wants to impress her, she's SO going to get her wicked way!)

[ex-ajhalluk585.livejournal.com]

I think there was some speculation (round about the time prestonuk was writing Admiral Nicola Marlow's DNB entry, with input from a few of us) that the "Claudie Scandal" may have put paid to Mr Merrick's Parliamentary career. Though perhaps he gets a better class of woman throwing themselves at his head?

But I'm sure I'm not the only one who wonders what Mr Merrick does for sex (with "not Helena, for sure" floating around in the mix of ideas).

[anstruther.livejournal.com]

*grins appreciatively* I'd love to read the Admiral Nicola Marlow DNB entry and about the Claudie Scandal. I can't find it on trennels or on prestonuk's journal, do you by any chance have a link you could post?

Many thanks in advance...

[coughingbear]

Just noticed this while catching up on old trennels discussion - the ODNB entry for Nicola is here.