Attic term
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trennels1. Nick and Lawrie are still on the Junior netball team, even though so much of the switch in EofT was because Nick would never again have the chance to do this because they'd be too old?
2. There seem to be so many more rules than ever before at school. I guess there must have been before, but somehow they just seem more prominent now. Nick and Miranda shopping for the play in End of Term didn't seem to involve nearly so much fuss as these shopping saturdays do - I know they were sent by a staff, but they seemed to be a lot more trusted then than later on.
3. What, exactly, were the millions of shopping party rules that they broke? OK, not telling Gina exactly where they were going - but surely girls didn't always know what shops they'd be in or what they'd be buying, specially as they were looking for things like birthday gifts, where they were undecided already about what to buy. Buying clothes? Did they know that was such an offence? they don't seem to have been aware at the time that they were breaking so many rules. Buying things for others? Well they were gifts, so was that really a problem? I know that it led to others finding Changegear, and doing illegal things like swapping clothes or getting Day Girls to provide things to swap. But what was so wrong about what Nick and Miranda did that day?
4. And why the sudden emphasis on Day Girls? Just a plot device? Or were they there all along and just not mentioned as much. Or perhaps schools by the time Attic Term was written did have a lot more day girls. (and a lot more rules!).
5. Miranda's Jewishness being such a problem at school Xmas events. (not just Attic term, but also End of Term). Why do they all care so much? I know that sometimes Jewish girls objected to being made to participate in Christian events, and fair enough, but she seems to want to do it, and is never allowed - not because her family would object, but because other people would, a feeling that it's somehow not proper/respectful etc of her to being doing it. That way around is something that seems less common, with everyone somehow worrying that someone else woudl object, but we never actually see anyone who finds it a problem. Is anyone really offended? Maybe people like Ann?
6. Patrick really does seem to be in love in Ginty at times. I tend to think of him as mostly just fancying her because she's there and she is so obviously keen on him - but that's probably because I know how it ends up. At the time, he seems quite keen on her, too, wishing she'd phone, wishing he could magic her there to be with him, etc. When he and Claudie are discussing sex, and he says he is innocent, and she gives him a long look - he then says 'no' - is she offering? I tend to read it like she is, but then sometimes I think she is just somehow questioning the fact that he doesn't want it. I don't really understand/like Patrick so much in this book. The whole crying at classical music, and just lots of other interactions, don't seem realistic to me, somehow.
2. There seem to be so many more rules than ever before at school. I guess there must have been before, but somehow they just seem more prominent now. Nick and Miranda shopping for the play in End of Term didn't seem to involve nearly so much fuss as these shopping saturdays do - I know they were sent by a staff, but they seemed to be a lot more trusted then than later on.
3. What, exactly, were the millions of shopping party rules that they broke? OK, not telling Gina exactly where they were going - but surely girls didn't always know what shops they'd be in or what they'd be buying, specially as they were looking for things like birthday gifts, where they were undecided already about what to buy. Buying clothes? Did they know that was such an offence? they don't seem to have been aware at the time that they were breaking so many rules. Buying things for others? Well they were gifts, so was that really a problem? I know that it led to others finding Changegear, and doing illegal things like swapping clothes or getting Day Girls to provide things to swap. But what was so wrong about what Nick and Miranda did that day?
4. And why the sudden emphasis on Day Girls? Just a plot device? Or were they there all along and just not mentioned as much. Or perhaps schools by the time Attic Term was written did have a lot more day girls. (and a lot more rules!).
5. Miranda's Jewishness being such a problem at school Xmas events. (not just Attic term, but also End of Term). Why do they all care so much? I know that sometimes Jewish girls objected to being made to participate in Christian events, and fair enough, but she seems to want to do it, and is never allowed - not because her family would object, but because other people would, a feeling that it's somehow not proper/respectful etc of her to being doing it. That way around is something that seems less common, with everyone somehow worrying that someone else woudl object, but we never actually see anyone who finds it a problem. Is anyone really offended? Maybe people like Ann?
6. Patrick really does seem to be in love in Ginty at times. I tend to think of him as mostly just fancying her because she's there and she is so obviously keen on him - but that's probably because I know how it ends up. At the time, he seems quite keen on her, too, wishing she'd phone, wishing he could magic her there to be with him, etc. When he and Claudie are discussing sex, and he says he is innocent, and she gives him a long look - he then says 'no' - is she offering? I tend to read it like she is, but then sometimes I think she is just somehow questioning the fact that he doesn't want it. I don't really understand/like Patrick so much in this book. The whole crying at classical music, and just lots of other interactions, don't seem realistic to me, somehow.
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Date: 2009-08-25 08:09 pm (UTC)3. Mmm. The 'not telling Gina which shops' thing is a bit much in some ways, especially as she doesn't actually ask because she's nervous and inexperienced. Is Miss Keith suggesting Nick and Miranda should have made the poor girl feel worse by telling her how to do her job and more or less telling her she's incompetent? Or that, because she didn't ask, they then shouldn't have gone in to any shops? (I often think it must have been petrifying to have to prefect people like Miranda, Nicola and co - even Lawrie, who certainly has her own moments of being utterly wet, has no hesitation dismissing Gina as a 'steaming nit' or something along those lines...)
I agree that Miranda and Nick don't appear to be consciously breaking rules - they even obey the rules about not eating in the street in uniform with an air of conscious virtue - and Nick knows she's not allowed to borrow from Miranda - which suggests the reverse of some kind of intentional escapade.
I have to say I always find the move from Miranda simply wanting to buy herself some clothes to the idea of buying half the form clothes a bit unconvincing - why the sudden philanthropic urge to brighten up the dinner table?
4. Day girls as plot device, definitely. Otherwise no one to provide the clothes to be swapped and cause all the hooha. Also maybe it heightens to pathos of Meg Thingie's horrid father/no extracurricular fun situation. I mean, I assume they were there all along, but don't feature much as the boarders would never really see them out of lesson time. Ginty certainly fantasises about being one at some point.
5. I don't think the concern is about anyone at the school objecting to a Jewish girl taking part in Anglican events - it's Miranda's parents' feelings about their daughter taking part in them that Miss Keith is concerned about, and I think there's an implication in Attic Term that her parents weren't best pleased about the nativity play participation. Doesn't someone say they'd taken the view she'd been 'more or less shanghai'ed into it'? I know Miranda herself doesn't present her family's religious belief as particularly fervent, but remember her mother still won't talk, years on, about the aunt who became a Catholic nun...? That they sent her to an Anglican school doesn't necessarily mean they're happy for her to get involved repeatedly in Anglican religious ceremonies.
6. I think Patrick is just self-absorbed, lonely and bored during the school term - he's isolated at school, and can't indulge in any of the country pursuits he loves, and he even realises that he'll partly miss Claudie when she leaves, even though he doesn't much like her, because she seems to be the only young person he ever sees outside of his schoolmates. I think Ginty is just available, and better fun than sexually-savvy Claudie twisting his hair around her finger and being patronising about his inexperience. I always think it's significant that he wants to 'whistle up' Ginty as if by magic when he wants her (and presumably magic her away again when he needs to do his Latin Unseen... I've never seen him as even in calf-love with her.
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Date: 2009-08-25 09:03 pm (UTC)Right. And worth noting that most (not all, but a very high percentage) boarding schools at that time would have been Anglican. I know the Wests sent Miranda there because of being evacuated during the war, so it seems very likely indeed that they chose Kingscote simply because it was a good school. Had they tried to find a non-religious school they would have severely limited their choices.
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Date: 2009-08-25 10:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-26 09:40 am (UTC)In Attic, Tim is the first one to assume Miranda can't take charge as director as it's carols, and Miranda says that anyway, she's already Games prefect. Tim thinks it's 'stupid' that Miranda shouldn't be involved as the obvious music person, but then acknowledges that, as it's in the school chapel (rather than the theatre or assembly hall, presumably?) that it's 'real holy stuff'. Then she says that as Director, she can co-opt Miranda to do the music part, and it's only nervy Esther, who's terrified of misbehaving, who worries about authority finding out. Tim says 'you were in the Christmas Play, and no one hurled thunderbolts.' To which Miranda replies that 'I know Keith took the line that I'd been practically conscripted, and it wasn't really my fault, but I don't think she cared about it too much.'
No one seems to give a toss, apart from Miss Keith, who is presumably primarily thinking of the sensibilities of the West parents and whatever arrangements are made for non-Anglicans like Miranda and Peggy Levy (who is more Orthodox, and doesn't even watch the Christmas Play and whose parents are presumably stricter about such things) to opt out of religious instruction and prayers etc.
Later Miranda says again 'I'm sure I shouldn't,' to which Tim responds that she'll be playing, not saying words, and that no one could possibly object', and though Miranda doesn't entirely agree, she lets herself be overruled - which I doubt she would if she thought it was a serious situation) and the chief thing is where to get her a chapel cape (as she clearly doesn't attend school prayers and services in the chapel as a rule) And in the event, there's no indication Miss Keith objected to Miranda's participation, even though she was presumably prominent as the sole violinist. Miss Latimer certainly doesn't seem to think anything is untoward when she's told Miranda and Tim wrote the little introductory carol verse.
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Date: 2009-08-27 09:40 am (UTC)Earlier in the book, Marie Dobson triggers Lawrie's 'Christians weren't Jews' discussion by saying that obviously Miranda can't be in the Play because she's Jewish, and I don't think she means because the Wests would object. Then when Kempe, Cromwell and Janice are discussing Miranda, Kempe says it doesn't matter to her that Miranda is Jewish 'But obviously some people would take great exception. And on the other side - what sort of trouble should we be letting ourselves in for from her parents?' On Christian objections she later says 'The thing is, however illogical it may be, there are people who would mind.' Miranda is also conscious of two issues - when they're discussing whether to try to do the swap she says 'practically everyone' might mind that she's Jewish. Then when Nick goes to fetch her from the Minster and mentions the possibility of her father minding, 'Miranda, to whom this particular objection hadn't occurred, frowned, considering.'
I think therefore that all this is in the background to Attic Term, and the objections that Miranda is thinking of are the ones that Miss Keith appears to feel and that 'other people' (such as Val Longstreet) feel, Christians objecting to a Jew taking part in what they consider an act of worship. (Of course, if the issue is faith, what anyone is doing allowing Lawrie in a religious event at all...)
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Date: 2009-08-27 11:03 am (UTC)Maybe the reason I didn't remember the extent to which the contrary view is put in End of Term is that it's either indirectly presented as 'some people might object' - those people never appearing - or put into the mouths of characters who are specifically presented as idiotic, like Val Longstreet and Marie Dobson...?
Yes, one feels Lawrie would have been astonished to be told that the nativity play intended the audience to think the Shepherd Boy was in fact less important than the child Jesus...
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Date: 2009-08-27 02:05 pm (UTC)It's a good point, though, why Miranda is prepared to get involved in the carols; perhaps because she was backed up at the time by people she respects, like Miss Cromwell and Janice, as well as her friends. And she does like to be in things.
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Date: 2009-08-27 08:45 pm (UTC)Anglican convent schools in the 1950s accepted Jewish pupils - and any exclusions were made by the parents, not by the school
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Date: 2009-08-25 09:00 pm (UTC)2. There are not more rules. Rules are inherently pretty dull things to write about except when they are being broken. In this book, a lot of rules are broken and we are told about some of them.
3. Who knows? AF didn't write the school rule book. And, if Kingscote was anything like my school (or indeed every other school I've been involved in as teacher or student) rules are constantly changing. There are rules which are implicit, rules which exist but are usually ignored, rules which are very general and can be invoked in a range of situations, and rules which are formed to deal with very specific things. It's clear that both Miranda and Nicola accept that they have broken the rules that they are accused of breaking, so the rules must have been sufficiently well-recognised. Eating the crisps is a good example of this - they know perfectly well that what they are doing isn't allowed, even though it is within the letter of the law, but they do it anyway because they know they'll get away with it. And with that one, at least, they do.
4. Selective storytelling. There were definitely day girls around in the earlier books, just not in Nicola's personal circle, nor relevant to the plot. This is how books work.
5. I think it's perfectly reasonable, actually, from Miss Keith's point of view not to have Miranda taking an active part in what she views as an act of Christian worship. I suppose it's possible to debate whether the Nativity Play was such an act, but the fact of it happening in the Minster and lots of Dr Herrick's comments indicate to me that this is how it is viewed. Similarly with the carol service. The Latimer tells them it was a quasi-religious event which I suppose gives a little bit more leeway, but still it is not a secular 'holiday' celebration.
6. Nah, Patrick doesn't love Ginty. He quite likes the idea of being in love with her and he is definitely dazzled by her beauty. He's mostly just lonely, especially in London, and it's always pleasant to talk to someone who panders to your ego the way Ginty does. Claudie is certainly offering. And indeed when she kisses him and Patrick decides he'd like to do that again, I expect she'll offer again. I think he will still say no, but I am not certain.
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Date: 2009-08-25 09:25 pm (UTC)Oh, am I misreading this then? I haven't the book to hand, but thought I remembered that the rule was about not eating in uniform in the street, so they 'virtuously' ate the crisps in the Cathedral Close, which presumably didn't count? I genuinely thought they were obeying, or believed they were obeying, the spirit as well as the letter... Clearly I would have been the steaming nit variety of shopping prefect.
I think both carol service and nativity play arguably come under the rubric of acts of collective worship - what the Latimer says is a passing on of a rebuke from On High that Nick and co's carols were too much of a performance, and not enough of a Prayerful Occasion. And that the audience in the Minster indicates appreciation by standing rather than applause takes that largely out of the secular for me, too...
Now wondering whether Patrick will confess to kissing Claudie the next time he goes to confession, and whether he will take it seriously if his confessor tells him to avoid Claudie in future as an Occasion of Sin... Will he have to give up his evening creme brulee? I always find it vaguely funny that the Patrick who blushed and stammered at Claudie's revelation that she's having her boyfriend to stay the night, has begun by the end of the novel to initiate kissing of Sophisticated Jolie Laide, and is even getting a bit of seductive banter going...
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Date: 2009-08-25 09:49 pm (UTC)Yes, Patrick is definitely Growing Up in Attic Term. Which is, I think, part of the reason why things with Ginty come to a crashing halt, because she really isn't.
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Date: 2009-08-25 10:42 pm (UTC)And none of this is meant to be critical, by the way. Just a few observations as I was reading the book.
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Date: 2009-08-26 08:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-25 10:07 pm (UTC)Day girls - Meg features significantly in Cricket term - she doesn't get the Prosser.
Is Kingscote overtly an Anglican school? I should think at that time most non-denominational schools had a big majority of "official" Anglicans, both pupils and staff, so their daily worship etc was geared to this, without the school proclaiming itself as an Anglican establishment. Apart from Miranda, there's Peggy Levy, from a much stricter practising Jewish family, if it was advertised specically as Anglican, I doubt if she'd have been sent there.
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Date: 2009-08-25 10:14 pm (UTC)Many boarding schools do have an Anglican foundation and it seems to me that Kingscote fits that pattern, with church on Sundays, hymns in assembly, links to the Minster and so on. I don't think that in the mid-20th century it would have been that easy to find a public school which didn't have a religious affiliation. There were certainly some, but not many. It's not a question of advertising but of foundation: who set the school up and why? My own school was by no means a 'Christian school', in that there were pupils of many different faiths and none, and there was nothing particularly Christian about the education we received, but it was very definitely an Anglican school.
Where else do you think Peggy Levy's parents would have sent her? Plenty of suitable day schools around London, but I'd struggle to think of a boarding school that would fit. Besides which, I just don't think people would have thought of the decision in those terms. Provided she was allowed to be exempt from all the things her parents disapproved of, why shouldn't she go to an Anglican school if it provided the best education?
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Date: 2009-08-25 10:33 pm (UTC)It's not just a question of what happened in assembly, it's the formal links with the Minster, the compulsory church attendance on Sundays (unless exemption is specifically given), and the whole pattern of school life, including things like the carol service. I can't see how it could be meant to be anything other than a Church of England school.
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Date: 2009-08-26 12:21 am (UTC)Yes indeed. And one of the ways readers work is by trying to figure out the 'rules' of the universe within which the book is set, in order to make sense of the storyline, ie by asking questions like this...
AF didn't write the school rule book
Well, if she didn't, no-one did! One of the big differences between Kingscote and the schools you've been involved in is that it's, well, fictional. As you say earlier in your comment, the rules only 'change' in that AF invokes them differently, for purposes of story-telling, not for the purposes of making an actual school run more smoothly. It's a question of world-building, I guess - like in science-fiction, you don't need to write the Operational Manual to the USS Enterprise, but if you're going to write a plot revolving around the capacity of the starship to escape or not escape through a wormhole at the Moment of Danger, you do need to let the readers know what the parameters are. Similarly, I have never understood any of the rules that are supposed to be in operation (written, unwritten, spirit, letter) in Attic Term, and so the plot has never made sense to me, because I can't tell what's at stake in any given plot development. I've always seen that as a lapse in worldbuilding in the later books.
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Date: 2009-08-26 08:57 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-27 01:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-26 10:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-26 11:43 am (UTC)Yes indeed. And one of the ways readers work is by trying to figure out the 'rules' of the universe within which the book is set, in order to make sense of the storyline, ie by asking questions like this...
Yes, this. Why would one bother being a member of Trennels, seemingly just to attempt to shut down discussion of the books by that kind of comment?
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Date: 2009-08-27 12:43 am (UTC)2. Miss Keith is an old fusspot where rules are concerned, or she can be. Miss Kempe and Miss Ussher certainly don't like being overruled in their choice of cast, from earlier in the book, and quite possibly think Keith's over-zealous. I dare say it's permitted for staff to send children out on errands at the end-of-year relaxation of rules, but I bet if Miss Keith found out after the play that those Nicola and Miranda had been sent into town, she'd be very sniffy with Kempe and Ussher.
5. I think Miss Keith's great care over Miranda being Jewish is just taking excessive care over not offending someone who she doesn't really understand. Neither Miranda nor her father show any signs of being religious Jews - there's absolutely no evidence that she goes off to the synagogue on Saturday, or has kosher food, for example - and I would think they avoid ham and go to the synagogue on holy days, rather as quite a lot of Catholics avoid meat on Fridays and go to church on holy days. Maybe Peggy Levy's parents, for example, would take offence where Miranda's wouldn't, and Keith's just being careful.
And as for other people's reactions, things have changed a lot in attitudes since then, and not just in terms of numbers of people attending church. I remember 25 years ago certain people, the older generation, objecting because our Methodist minister (a) lit a candle in church, and (b) looked up at the cross on the front wall before the sermon. They thought both practices were somewhat Roman Catholic. Now, no-one would dream of objecting. End of Term was published in 1959, when religious observance (possibly as opposed to Christianity) was much more significant in people's lives.
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Date: 2009-08-27 09:06 am (UTC)Naturally, none of his takes away the pleasure of AF; it almost adds to it.
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Date: 2009-08-27 12:24 pm (UTC)Or even maybe, she knew Lawrie is a terrific actress and would do the job brilliantly, but doesn't trust her and/or consider her record good enough to be allowed to try. But she thinks Nicola would do a good job as well, and so allows her record to pass muster.
In spite of what Nicola thinks, I reckon Keith does like her. She certainly stretches a point to give Lawrie the Prosser so Nicola can stay on at school.
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Date: 2009-08-27 12:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-27 02:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-27 08:53 pm (UTC)second thoughts are that, since the author is Jewish, but didn't board at an Anglicsn school - convent or otherwise - perhaps she simply didn't know what was usual/acceptable?
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Date: 2009-08-28 06:04 pm (UTC)A school like Kingscote, with a Christian ethos but not specifically a Church school, is far more likely to try not to discomfit the non-Christian. Possibly, in Miss Keith's case, being a bit too careful here - maybe with eyes on Mr. West having paid for the swimming pool - by which I don't mean she's being greedy and hoping for more, rather that she feels she owes him a special debt and so takes extra care not to cause offence.
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Date: 2009-08-28 06:41 pm (UTC)I suspect that some non-Christian schools would have been less accepting
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Date: 2009-08-28 07:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-09-01 04:31 pm (UTC)Suspect AF probably wrote about these issues because they were ambiguous.
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Date: 2009-09-01 08:54 pm (UTC)Although of course sincerity of belief is not enough to make Jess a good actor, while Lawrie can do a fantastic job without it, so obviously it is complicated.
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Date: 2009-09-27 11:37 am (UTC)2. Agree, it doesn't seem a massive deal, but schools can be like that if the consequences are dire.
4. - There are day girls mentioned at other times. In Autumn Term, after the first few get to Third Remove and have teh desk argument, the rest, "including day girls" come in.
Then there are day girls Meg Hopkins and Berenice what's-her-name, mentioned in Cricket Term as well as Attic Term.
5. I think Keith sees both Christmas Play and Carol Concert (in Attic Term) as religious services. And hence only for Christian girls, if only nominally Christian such as Lawrie and Nick.
6. I think Patrick makes it reasonably clear he's not in love with Ginty - interested, but not in love. He tells Claudie that he doesn't want his relationship with Ginty to be sexual, and then says later sex should only be with someone you really care for (or pay for!). Seems to knock Ginty out of it altogether, I reckon.
Amanda
Miranda and the worst snub of all
Date: 2010-01-23 07:20 pm (UTC)But why was this SO bad? Presumably because AF herself would have been mortally offended by the thought that as a Jewish child she was not fit to participate in a play about the birth of Christ. I suppose.
I was so bothered by this, however, that I actually wrote to AF when I was about 17, asking her why Nicola thought that Miranda's snub had been so much worse than what was clearly going to come down on herself, Lawrie, and Tim. Alas, she never replied.
Patrick
Date: 2010-02-09 01:38 am (UTC)