Relationship between twins

[alliekiwi.livejournal.com]

Are there any psychologists here to tell us about the psychology of twinhood?

When I was reading the David Eddings series The Belgariad and associated other books, it mentioned that when you have twins, one will be more dominant over the other. One sign of which is that the less dominant twin will tend to speak about 'we' and 'us' and think of themselves as part of a set more than as an individual.

I'm not sure how much credence to give this idea, considering it was in a work of fiction. Particularly as I'm thinking about the idea in relation to another set of fictional twins. *grin* However, I've read elsewhere about the idea of dominance in twins.

In the Marlow series who do you see as the 'dominant' twin, if there is such a thing? Who tries to assert their individuality more?

My opinion (which is open to swaying by a good argument) is that Lawrie is more focussed on twinhood as her identity than Nicola. On the one hand she wants to be a famous actress and do her own thing, but she also seems to want to drag Nicola along with her. Yet then she doesn't like Nicola being in the limelight. She tends to be manipulative and whinge when she doesn't get her own way.

However, isn't it Lawrie who instigates the twin-swaps to further her own ends, which seems to show that she has some dominance over Nicola? (Actually I don't recall to well the finer details of those occasions.)

Yet it was Lawrie who tried to cut her own hair to match Nicola's new [accidental] haircut. Also, Lawrie seems to need more support from her bosom pal, to bolster her sense of self.

Has anyone else any thoughts on this, or heard other theories about the twins and their personalities?

Comments

[antfan.livejournal.com]

There was an interesting article about child development in a recent Prospect magazine - by a researcher called Judith something (I can look it up if you're interested)- that referred to this issue. Apparently even genetically identical twins will tend to take on slightly different roles for themselves - finding themselves a particular "niche" in their social group - at quite a young age. Their peer group is important in this respect. I thought this fitted the Marlow twins well - you can imagine Nicola gets posted as the "sensible" one and Lawrie slightly babied, and then these roles get exagerrated over time, as they develop strategies for getting by based on these roles. So, for example, we often hear how Lawrie can make people laugh, and she also cries a lot. Nicola on the other hand relies more on pride and prickliness to get her through. Both of them like to be well thought of by their peers - and are upset when they aren't - but they rely on different strategies (Lawrie entertaining/embarrassing people into looking after her, Nicola being sensible and resourceful) to achieve this. They also gravitate towards different activities - acting and sport - which fit these attributes and so entrench them further.

The way their relationship develops, I think they are both taking steps away from their "twinness" throughout the series, however, I agree, I think Lawrie wants to maintain it more because Nicola looks after her and gives in to her in their relationship. Lawrie is a bit fed up by Nicola's relationship with Patrick (Falconer's Lure) and by her going off to spend the holiday with Miranda (Thuggery Affair) and Nicola is upset by the closeness of Lawrie and Tim's friendship in End of Term - but more by the realisation that Tim likes Lawrie better than her, than by loss of intimacy with Lawrie. I do think a crucial turning point comes in Ready Made Family when Nicola rides away from a sobbing Lawrie, and then, to her family's amazement, refuses to give in or compromise. After that, there does seem more distance between them - eg in Cricket Term, Nicola keeps her distance and effectively roots for Miranda when Lawrie is chucked out of the School Play.

What I've always thought WAS unlikely was that Nicola should sing brilliantly while Lawrie can't hold a tune! Surely that kind of thing must be genetically determined?

Welcome by the way...and excuse me rabbiting on!

[miss-lilley.livejournal.com]

Isn't it mentioned in (I think) Falconer's Lure that Lawrie can't sing because of some complication of the measles they had? Even so, it's not *totally* implausible - I know several families where only one or two members can sing (my own included).

[alliekiwi.livejournal.com]

My family are musical as well, on my father's side. My mother is tone deaf. Some of us can sing, others cannot. However if musical ability is somehow genetic, then surely identical twins must have the same potential? Sadly no identical twins amongst our lot to give comparison!

Having found this LJ community, I'm dying to get out my books and re-read them so I can have canon facts at my finger tips. I'm finding it singularly frustrating that I cannot do so!

It's been several years since I read Falconer's Lure. I don't think I purchased a copy of the GGB edition as I thought I had my own hardback...

[colne-dsr.livejournal.com]

I think the measles suggestion came up on this board a year or two back, it's not canon. Another suggestion that came up was that when the twins were young and being ill all the time, perhaps Lawrie was iller and got babied more.

[richenda.livejournal.com]

I know a pair of twins who can both sight-read, but one "can" sing and the other "can't" - but it's sometimes difficult to be sure whether this is a question of wish and practice. It could simply be that one is more interested than the other.

[alliekiwi.livejournal.com]

Hee hee, thanks for the welcome!

Don't worry about rabbiting on. I'm rather overly verbose myself and don't want to be alone in blathering about this and that.

Hmm, so what you're getting at is that Lawrie and Nicola responded to how they were treated and how successful they were with various strategies of getting what they wanted, and in a way their personalities were moulded by that?

I remember some research when I was reading Education at Uni that looked at how boys and girls are treated from a young age, and how people mould them into different types of behaviour. The researchers had a pre-school child with haircut and clothing that didn't give away gender, and invited a series of people to come and play/interact with the child. Some were told the child was a boy, others were told it was a girl. Their perception of the child's gender meant that they encouraged and allowed certain behaviours whilst not encouraging others.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't mean they would have conscious strategies - they would probably be unconscious responses to situations they found themselves in, and these would become stronger over time. The article was by Judith Rich Harris in May's Prospect - it wasn't so much about twins as how social settings help determine the personality - not just genes/family environment.

I like the bit in the End of Term twin swap, by the way, where Lawrie is pretending to be a sickly Nicola, and acting bravely pathetic - and Nicola wonders uneasily "if that was the way she talked when she was ill, it wasn't rather maddening for everyone".

It shows them watching each other and the way they act - and also the odd thing about Lawrie, that she is very acutely observant of other people, at the same time as not seeming to have much self-awareness.

[antfan.livejournal.com]

sorry - that was me - antfan

[elizahonig.livejournal.com]

Lawrie is acutely observant but only insofar as she can use what she observes to further her own wants and needs. That's not the same as being able to judge, assess, criticize others on their own terms, which would be more related to self-awareness.

[colne-dsr.livejournal.com]

I suspect the "dominant twin" theory isn't really twin-related at all. With any two people living together, especially when they're brought up together, might result in one being dominant, or might not. Twins presumably tend to spend much more time together than any other pairs of children, so it might seem a bit more obvious with them.

[thekumquat.livejournal.com]

Nicola seems clearly dominant in most social groups - she's decisive, clearly spoken, etc, while Lawrie's busy being sick before parties. I get the impression Nicola's normally louder about what she wants and things go how she wants most of the time - Lawrie's either late or initially quiet so then when she does express what she wants people accuse her of whinging - which she then does do because it's often effective.

The dominant bit fits with most people liking Nicola best, and probably treating Lawrie as a bit of an afterthought. Lawrie is good at sports, but not quite as good as Nicola, good at lessons, but not as bright as Nicola (or maybe just daydreams a lot?), Nicola can sing which is clearly a respected talent, Lawrie can't. It wouldn't be surprising if Lawrie saw herself simply as a crap version of Nicola and therefore clings more to being a twin as a way to get some of Nicola's reflected glory.

How they act in private is somewhat different to how the outside world sees them, but it seems as if Nicola is still used to being the responsible one. I think the twin swaps aren't about dominance - both of them got something out of it (one over on Marie Dobson, for example).

[richenda.livejournal.com]

Aren't there different ways of being dominant?
We are told, when Nicola refuses to give way about the pony, that this is unusual.
If we can say that Laurie is manipulative, can't we also say that this is her way of dominating.
It also occurs to me that twinship within a large family has less of an impact on the twins themselves than it does in small family, there being so many other influences on their relationship.

[antfan.livejournal.com]

yes, your point about the large family - Nicola doesn't even like Lawrie best, it's Giles then Rowan then Peter/Lawrie tie. God knows why she likes Giles so much...

[thekumquat.livejournal.com]

Treats her like a grown-up (mostly), and has the attraction of not being there most of the time, so somewhat exotic? If she'd had to regularly fight Giles for hot water and the last bun I suspect she'd find him patronising and annoying.

He'd probably find her more annoying, too.

[rosathome.livejournal.com]

Plus he's significantly older than the others which gives him added glamour. Not to mention his uniform and ship.

[antfan.livejournal.com]

All true. I just resent the way he turns up in Run Away Home and somehow takes over, and everyone falls into line...makes it much less interesting than it could have been.

Twins

[stripydinosaur.livejournal.com]

I knew some twins at school and, just like Nicola and Lawrie, one twin was generally more popular than the other; also, although they were identical, they had completely different personalities and had done, apparently, since they were babies. I have been told that, with identical twins, one twin is always dominant in the womb, taking more of the oxygen from the placenta than the other! However, it was the twin who was born stronger (the dominant twin in the womb) who always let the other win if they were - for example - arm wrestling.

[ex-lizzzar998.livejournal.com]

I listened to a radio programme once about how female identical twins can have differences depending on which X Chromosome is activated - eg they both have two the same, but only need one, and different Chromosomes can be activated. Obviously does not apply to male identical twins. I think some differences in the womb combined with further differences being emphasized by external responses as they develop ( as you say) could also easily produce Nicola and Lawrie. Maybe someone who went further in science could comment more.

chromosomes

[tosomja.livejournal.com]

It's true that female identical twins seems to be less alike than male identical twins and it does seem to be because of the different X chromosomes - as far as I remember from the genetics course I did different X chromosomes can get activated in different cells, so it's not a question of one twin using one X chromosome and the other using the other (for example) but of the different cells of each twin being a mosaic of the two X chromosomes and the two mosaics will be different.
Having said that Nicola and Lawrie seem to be particularly different for identical twins, but twin studies do show that twins often get labelled from quite early on and that parents will rate their twins as more different than they 'really' are - i.e. parents will think one twin is more able than the other, for example, whereas if you do ability testing they will be much more similar. Maybe everyone does this, when we have two identical people we need to look for differences rather than similarities, and so the differences seem to be accentuated. Mind you, all the Marlow sibs seem very different to each other, apart from their generally high achieving ethos.

Re: chromosomes

[ex-lizzzar998.livejournal.com]

Thanks for clarifying that - I haven't studied biology for a while.

[whinny-muir.livejournal.com]

I have identical twins so Nicola & Lawrie's relationship has always made perfect sense to me. *Dominance* tends to swap around depending on activity & the confidence of any particular twin at any given time. Twinship has loads of disadvantages as well as its perks. One of my sons once said;"Here, try this on so I can see how I'll look in it." On the other hand he went to great pains at one point to try & rearrange his brother's features. The urge to seperate is equally counterbalanced by the need to assert the specialness of the twin bond. There is a constant tension between the two & it continues into adulthood.

As for the acting/singing thing ~ they are both creative & *idential twins* is a misnomer. My science isn't brilliant but I do get that even identials have some difference in their genetic make~up[ think fingerprints & footprints] & these can be subtley enhanced or subdued by environmental factors. Twins, especially identicals who share so many common traits, will also seek an area of individuality & not intrude on the twin's area. That has been our experience.

Bear in mind that while Lawrie appears to be the more needy twin Nick was terribly upset when Lawrie asked for Tim in preference to herself at the height of their fight[End of Term]. Usually the twin bond dominates all others irregardless of how strong the personality. Suspect Antonia Forest knew at least one set of twins very well indeed.